"24 Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy
city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone
for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision
and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore
and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build
Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be
seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again, with
squares and a moat, but in a troubled time. 26a And after the
sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have
nothing."
Part 1 and Part 2 can be found here.
So far we have seen that this prophecy concerns Jesus' crucifixion and we have seen that the start date for the prophecy was Nisan 1, 444 BC. In this post we are going to look at the three sources mentioned in the previous post to see how some people have attempted to calculate the prophecy dates. Before we cover those models, some groundwork has to be laid.
1. Most of the people who attempt to calculate the prophecy assume, based on Genesis 7:11, 24 and 8:4 where 150 days passes and exactly 5 months pass, that there is a 360-day year (12, 30-day months) that is God's "prophetic calendar". The timing of prophecies must then be calculated using the 360-day year rather than our modern 365.25 days per year model with leap years. This is highly debatable. Probably the foremost expert on the Ancient Near East and an Old Testmanet commentator, Gleason L. Archer, said that there is no evidence that anyone ever used a 360-day year. But, I am not saying this "prophetic calendar" is correct, I am merely attempting to show the timing of Daniel's 70 weeks is accurate by way of showing how close we can get to calculating it. In the end, you will see that if we just had a bit more data, we could calculate it accurately.
2. This prophecy culminates in Christ's crucifixion, so we are looking for that Friday Passover sometime between 28-33 AD. However, the prophecy says first that the anointed one will come. A lot of commentators agree that this is Jesus' triumphal entry. This is intimately associated with the Passover lamb instructions that God gave the Israelites in Exodus 12:3, 6. Namely, that the lamb has to stay in the house with them for 4 days before they kill and eat it (10th Nisan with the Passover being 14th Nisan). This means Christ's triumphal entry into Jerusalem had to come on Sunday so he could "stay in house" for 4 days as our Passover lamb: Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. The passover supper would have been on Thursday evening, the crucifixion on Friday, and the resurrection on Sunday. Ultimately, we are looking for a Sunday triumphal entry in a year that had Passover on a Friday.
3. For the sake of brevity, I am leaving out a lot of the astonomical data concerning the moon phases. The first book's author used data from the Royal Observatory in England to calculate his dates. It would be time consuming and confusing to include it. I am giving the information you need, not necessarily all the information used.
4. As I have said before, calendar matching from ancient to modern is not something that can be done with high accuracy.
With that in mind, let's get started.
The Coming Prince by Sir Robert Anderson
Anderson's model is wrong, but it is the most robust modern try at it and it forms the basis for a lot of subsequent thought about this prophecy. He starts off by naming the wrong starting date. He thinks Nisan 1 is March 14th, 445 BC. In his defense, he wrote in the late 1800's/early 1900's, scholars didn't know about the dating procedures of ancients. Remember we said that accession year dating was used, so Artaxerxes' first year, 465 BC, was only partial and wasn't counted. His "first year" by their count was 464 BC. That puts the 20th year (Neh 2:1) in 444 BC, not 445 BC. Next, he calculated the days from that date.
69 weeks of years x 7 years per week = 483 years
483 years x 360 days/year = 173,880 days
173,880 days + March 14th, 445 BC = April 6th, 32 AD (a Sunday)
This seems to work. But, Passover in 32 AD was either Sunday or Monday. This does give us a start though.
Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ, Part VI: Daniel's Seventy Weeks and New Testament Chronology by Harold Hoehner
Hoehner took Anderson's model and made some refinements that get us a little further. First, he fixed the start date. Nisan 1, 444 BC is March 5th, 444 BC.
173,880 days + March 5th, 444 BC = March 26th, 33 AD
Hoehner does some finagling with the prophetic calendar and the solar year calendar that I am not showing. I will discuss that below. This also doesn't work because the 26th was a Thursday. This would put the Passover on Monday. We need a triumphal entry on a Sunday.
"An Examination of the Chronological Difficulties of Hoehner and Ice's Calculations of Daniel 9's First 69 Weeks" by Bob Pickle
Pickle points out some problems with Hoehner's model that will be helpful to us. But, Pickle himself comes to the conclusion that Christ's baptism was the end of the prophecy. I am going to ignore that part of it. First, the Jews inserted leap months, 7 every nineteen years, into their calendars. That means they had an extra month 7 times every nineteen years. 444 BC was one of those leap years. That makes the start date April 2nd, 444 BC when the extra month is taken into consideration.
173,880 days / 365.24219 days per year (solar year) = 476 solar years
476 solar years x 365.24219 days per year = 173,855 days
173,855 days + April 2nd, 444 BC = March 29th, 33 AD
March 29th, 33 AD is a Sunday -- Triumphal Entry
March 30th, 33 AD is a Monday -- Nisan 10th
30th, 31st, 1st, 2nd -- lamb kept in house
April 3rd, 33 AD is a Friday -- Nisan 14th (this day would start the evening before according to Jewish reckoning and means the Passover dinner was eaten what we would call Thursday night)
This seems to fix everything, except that there is some serious rounding in the math done. The numbers are actually 476.0676744 solar years and that translates back into 173,880 days. Keeping the numbers accurate would put the triumphal entry on a Friday. Also, the Passover was on Saturday or Sunday in 33 AD. Finally, I am not even going to get into the arguments over what year Jesus' ministry started.
At this point, you can see that every model and set of calculations has some problems, but this still gets us very close to calculating the date of both Christ's triumphal entry and crucifixion. I said previously that this series would be a little bit anticlimactic and I still think it is. However, the fact that we cannot accurately calculate the prophecy in no way means that is isn't true. Jesus held the Jews responsible for not knowing it. In Luke 19:41-44, he says with my highlights:
And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
It is still readily believable that Jesus orchestrated his death down to the very day. That should give us great comfort. Jesus willingly sacrificed himself for us even though he knew the whole time what was coming and the very hour of his death. It also demonstrates the incredible knowledge and power of God that in 483 years of human history, He effortlessly organized it so that the table was set for the God-man, Jesus Christ, to appear on the day he told Daniel 600 years before hand.
Showing posts with label reading the bible. Show all posts
Showing posts with label reading the bible. Show all posts
Monday, November 14, 2016
Monday, November 7, 2016
Daniel 9:24-26a, Part 2
"24 Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy
city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone
for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision
and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore
and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build
Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be
seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again, with
squares and a moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the
sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have
nothing."
In part 1 we discussed verse 24 wherein we saw that the prophecy related to Daniel in this passage is Messianic. That means it has to do with Jesus Christ as the Messiah. In particular, it has to do with his crucifixion. The reason we can pinpoint that particular aspect of his ministry, his atonement that is, is due to the fact that the removal of transgressions, sins, and iniquity is in view. That only happened on Calvary when Christ was crucified. As mentioned last week, there is a specific timing element to this prophecy and it ends at Christ's crucifixion. In today's post we will look at some theories about where the timing fits in history based on an evaluation of verse 25 and 26a.
Verse 25: The opening phrase of verse 25 is important. It says; "Know therefore and understand...". A lot of people think that prophecy isn't that important, but what we see here is that Gabriel, with a message from God, is telling Daniel to know and understand what he is about to say. Since this is part of the Old Testament canon that God saw fit to give to us, we had also better know and understand it to the best of our ability. The next phrase, "that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem..." is very specific. It points to some kind of word that will allow or order the Jews to rebuild Jerusalem. Remember that in 587/6 BC, Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian armies destroyed Jerusalem and the first temple. Jerusalem has lain in ruins for close to seventy years which is exactly what God told Jeremiah (25:11; 29:10) he was going to do to Israel for their rebellion. At this time, about 538 BC, the Jews were living under Persian rule, so anything they did in their homeland had to be approved by the ruler of the Persian empire. That is exactly what happened. In 538/7 BC, Cyrus the King of Persia allowed, by decree, Jews to return to their homeland and rebuild the temple. This is recorded at the end of 2 Chronicles, verses 22 and 23 and it was prophesied by God through Isaiah in chapter 44, verse 28. This is exactly where Ezra picks up, in chapter 1, verses 1-4; with Cyrus' decree to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. This was the first time that Jews were officially allowed to return to Israel since the Babylonian empire conquered Judah. But, this is not our decree. It says nothing of the city of Jerusalem. It only directs the construction efforts of the temple. The prophecy says specifically that the word is to "restore and build Jerusalem", not the temple.
We have yet another decree concerning the temple in Ezra 6:1-15. It was really just a reinforcement of Cyrus' original decree due to the opposition the Jews were facing in completing the temple. They did get the temple finished, but we still don't have a starting point for the prophecy we are investigating. For that we have to look in Nehemiah 2:1-8.
In Nehemiah chapter 1 it says that Nehemiah got a report that Jerusalem and its gates were still ruined. This causes Nehemiah great consternation. So much so that Artaxerxes, the King of Persia at this time, recognizes his sadness and grants his request to return to Israel. This is how it happens. Nehemiah 2:1-8:
"In the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes, when wine was before him, I took up the wine and gave it to the king. Now I had not been sad in his presence. And the king said to me, “Why is your face sad, seeing you are not sick? This is nothing but sadness of the heart.” Then I was very much afraid. I said to the king, “Let the king live forever! Why should not my face be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers' graves, lies in ruins, and its gates have been destroyed by fire?” Then the king said to me, “What are you requesting?” So I prayed to the God of heaven. And I said to the king, “If it pleases the king, and if your servant has found favor in your sight, that you send me to Judah, to the city of my fathers' graves, that I may rebuild it.” And the king said to me (the queen sitting beside him), “How long will you be gone, and when will you return?” So it pleased the king to send me when I had given him a time. And I said to the king, “If it pleases the king, let letters be given me to the governors of the province Beyond the River, that they may let me pass through until I come to Judah, and a letter to Asaph, the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the fortress of the temple, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall occupy.” And the king granted me what I asked, for the good hand of my God was upon me."
Now we have our decree to fix Jerusalem! In addition, we have the month this decree was made; Nisan, which is March/April on our calendar. And, we have what year it was; the 20th year of Artaxerxes. Most commentators agree that because no day is given along with the month, this means that Nehemiah refers to the first day of the month. Historians and biblical scholars have shown that the king referred to is Artaxerxes Longimanus, also known as Artaxerxes I. He reigned from 465-424 BC. The 20th year of his reign would be 444 BC due to the fact that ancient peoples started counting a king's rule from the first full year, which in this case would be 464 BC. This means that Nisan 1, 444 BC is our start date.
Our end date is where the real argument lies, though people still argue about the start date as well. The scripture says: "to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again, with squares and a moat, but in a troubled time." The prophecy is now split up into two parts; 69 weeks and 1 week to make seventy weeks. There are 69 weeks total when added in the first part (7+62). However, even this is a point of contention among translators and theologians about how to take the 7 and 62 weeks, but I think it makes the most sense to join them so that it is 69 weeks or 483 years between the decree and the coming of an anointed one. The HCSB, KJV, NASB, and NIV translate it to this effect. I usually read the ESV and that is what is quoted above. That leaves 1 week or 7 years at some point after the "prince" comes. Who is the anointed one that will be the end of the 69 weeks? This seems assuredly to be Christ. In light of verse 24 and the discussion of the end of sin and the ushering in of everlasting righteousness in which a "holy [one]" (see part 1 about the translation here) is anointed seems very clear; it is Jesus Christ. Specifically, it is his crucifixion. This is the only place where atonement for sin was made. Verse 26a gives us that information: "an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing." If Jesus is the anointed one, and I think he is the person in view, then his being "cut off" and coming to "have nothing" seems evident in the Gospels. Specifically in Matthew's Gospel chapter 27, verse 46.
With all that in place, we can now turn to the actual modern calendar dates and figuring out how this prophecy is laid out. We have a start date of Nisan 1, 444 BC and an end date of Christ's crucifixion to be determined by calculating the 69 weeks. In order to do this we are going to take a look at 3 dating models and, in a bit of an anticlimactic ending, we are going to realize that dating this thing with 100% accuracy is virtually impossible this side of heaven. However, even though we can't pinpoint the exact dates, we can get close, close enough to understand that it does happen just as God said it would. That should make us all realize the power in the foreknowledge of God and His providential control of all world events. The three models we are going to look at are:
1. The Coming Prince by Sir Robert Anderson
2. Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ, Part VI: Daniel's Seventy Weeks and New Testament Chronology by Harold Hoehner
3. "An Examination of the Chronological Difficulties of Hoehner and Ice's Calculations of Daniel 9's First 69 Weeks" by Bob Pickle
This is where we will continue next time.
In part 1 we discussed verse 24 wherein we saw that the prophecy related to Daniel in this passage is Messianic. That means it has to do with Jesus Christ as the Messiah. In particular, it has to do with his crucifixion. The reason we can pinpoint that particular aspect of his ministry, his atonement that is, is due to the fact that the removal of transgressions, sins, and iniquity is in view. That only happened on Calvary when Christ was crucified. As mentioned last week, there is a specific timing element to this prophecy and it ends at Christ's crucifixion. In today's post we will look at some theories about where the timing fits in history based on an evaluation of verse 25 and 26a.
Verse 25: The opening phrase of verse 25 is important. It says; "Know therefore and understand...". A lot of people think that prophecy isn't that important, but what we see here is that Gabriel, with a message from God, is telling Daniel to know and understand what he is about to say. Since this is part of the Old Testament canon that God saw fit to give to us, we had also better know and understand it to the best of our ability. The next phrase, "that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem..." is very specific. It points to some kind of word that will allow or order the Jews to rebuild Jerusalem. Remember that in 587/6 BC, Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian armies destroyed Jerusalem and the first temple. Jerusalem has lain in ruins for close to seventy years which is exactly what God told Jeremiah (25:11; 29:10) he was going to do to Israel for their rebellion. At this time, about 538 BC, the Jews were living under Persian rule, so anything they did in their homeland had to be approved by the ruler of the Persian empire. That is exactly what happened. In 538/7 BC, Cyrus the King of Persia allowed, by decree, Jews to return to their homeland and rebuild the temple. This is recorded at the end of 2 Chronicles, verses 22 and 23 and it was prophesied by God through Isaiah in chapter 44, verse 28. This is exactly where Ezra picks up, in chapter 1, verses 1-4; with Cyrus' decree to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. This was the first time that Jews were officially allowed to return to Israel since the Babylonian empire conquered Judah. But, this is not our decree. It says nothing of the city of Jerusalem. It only directs the construction efforts of the temple. The prophecy says specifically that the word is to "restore and build Jerusalem", not the temple.
We have yet another decree concerning the temple in Ezra 6:1-15. It was really just a reinforcement of Cyrus' original decree due to the opposition the Jews were facing in completing the temple. They did get the temple finished, but we still don't have a starting point for the prophecy we are investigating. For that we have to look in Nehemiah 2:1-8.
In Nehemiah chapter 1 it says that Nehemiah got a report that Jerusalem and its gates were still ruined. This causes Nehemiah great consternation. So much so that Artaxerxes, the King of Persia at this time, recognizes his sadness and grants his request to return to Israel. This is how it happens. Nehemiah 2:1-8:
"In the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes, when wine was before him, I took up the wine and gave it to the king. Now I had not been sad in his presence. And the king said to me, “Why is your face sad, seeing you are not sick? This is nothing but sadness of the heart.” Then I was very much afraid. I said to the king, “Let the king live forever! Why should not my face be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers' graves, lies in ruins, and its gates have been destroyed by fire?” Then the king said to me, “What are you requesting?” So I prayed to the God of heaven. And I said to the king, “If it pleases the king, and if your servant has found favor in your sight, that you send me to Judah, to the city of my fathers' graves, that I may rebuild it.” And the king said to me (the queen sitting beside him), “How long will you be gone, and when will you return?” So it pleased the king to send me when I had given him a time. And I said to the king, “If it pleases the king, let letters be given me to the governors of the province Beyond the River, that they may let me pass through until I come to Judah, and a letter to Asaph, the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the fortress of the temple, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall occupy.” And the king granted me what I asked, for the good hand of my God was upon me."
Now we have our decree to fix Jerusalem! In addition, we have the month this decree was made; Nisan, which is March/April on our calendar. And, we have what year it was; the 20th year of Artaxerxes. Most commentators agree that because no day is given along with the month, this means that Nehemiah refers to the first day of the month. Historians and biblical scholars have shown that the king referred to is Artaxerxes Longimanus, also known as Artaxerxes I. He reigned from 465-424 BC. The 20th year of his reign would be 444 BC due to the fact that ancient peoples started counting a king's rule from the first full year, which in this case would be 464 BC. This means that Nisan 1, 444 BC is our start date.
Our end date is where the real argument lies, though people still argue about the start date as well. The scripture says: "to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again, with squares and a moat, but in a troubled time." The prophecy is now split up into two parts; 69 weeks and 1 week to make seventy weeks. There are 69 weeks total when added in the first part (7+62). However, even this is a point of contention among translators and theologians about how to take the 7 and 62 weeks, but I think it makes the most sense to join them so that it is 69 weeks or 483 years between the decree and the coming of an anointed one. The HCSB, KJV, NASB, and NIV translate it to this effect. I usually read the ESV and that is what is quoted above. That leaves 1 week or 7 years at some point after the "prince" comes. Who is the anointed one that will be the end of the 69 weeks? This seems assuredly to be Christ. In light of verse 24 and the discussion of the end of sin and the ushering in of everlasting righteousness in which a "holy [one]" (see part 1 about the translation here) is anointed seems very clear; it is Jesus Christ. Specifically, it is his crucifixion. This is the only place where atonement for sin was made. Verse 26a gives us that information: "an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing." If Jesus is the anointed one, and I think he is the person in view, then his being "cut off" and coming to "have nothing" seems evident in the Gospels. Specifically in Matthew's Gospel chapter 27, verse 46.
With all that in place, we can now turn to the actual modern calendar dates and figuring out how this prophecy is laid out. We have a start date of Nisan 1, 444 BC and an end date of Christ's crucifixion to be determined by calculating the 69 weeks. In order to do this we are going to take a look at 3 dating models and, in a bit of an anticlimactic ending, we are going to realize that dating this thing with 100% accuracy is virtually impossible this side of heaven. However, even though we can't pinpoint the exact dates, we can get close, close enough to understand that it does happen just as God said it would. That should make us all realize the power in the foreknowledge of God and His providential control of all world events. The three models we are going to look at are:
1. The Coming Prince by Sir Robert Anderson
2. Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ, Part VI: Daniel's Seventy Weeks and New Testament Chronology by Harold Hoehner
3. "An Examination of the Chronological Difficulties of Hoehner and Ice's Calculations of Daniel 9's First 69 Weeks" by Bob Pickle
This is where we will continue next time.
Monday, October 31, 2016
Daniel 9:24-26a, Part 1
"24 Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again, with squares and a moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing."
There probably are not many scripture passages more argued about within Christianity than this one. The timing of end time events is always a much talked about topic. What I want to do here is offer some of my own thoughts that have come about as I have studied and read about this passage. There is an obvious timing element to this prophecy, and that is the real center of the debate about it. To what or whom does the timing refer? When does the clock start? When did it end? How do we compare calendars to figure out exact dates for what we may think it means? All these questions and more matter. Let's get started.
First things first. Daniel has recognized that Jeremiah's seventy years of desolation's (Jer 25:11; 29:10) of Jerusalem are nearly passed (9:1, 2) and that God's mercy will soon be realized among the Jews. Realizing this, Daniel prays (9:3-19). Mainly, he repents for Israel of all the evil that they have done against God and begs for His mercy. As a result, Gabriel comes to give Daniel (and us!) insight into what the future holds (9:20-23). That is where we will pick up the interpretation.
Verse 24: The seventy weeks can also be translated seventy sevens (also in verses 25, 26). Most commentators think this means that the overall time period being discussed is 70 weeks of years or 490 years (70 weeks x 7 years/week=490years). The weeks are for "your people" and "your holy city". I think we can agree that this is the Jews and Jerusalem. Gabriel is relating this prophecy to Daniel, so this seems to be straightforward. Daniel's people are the Jews and his holy city would be Jerusalem, where the temple mount is (the temple is no longer there and the 2nd temple is yet to be rebuilt). After that, there are 6 items listed that will happen in the seventy weeks: finish transgression, end sin, atone for iniquity, start righteousness forever, seal vision and prophet, and anoint a holy place. The early Church fathers who commented on this passage all thought that these things had to do with Christ (for example Theodotion 150 AD and Jerome 400 AD).
1. "to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin": The only thing that put an end to sin is Christ's sacrifice. It is through His blood that we can be free of the evil influence of sin that enslaves us (Rom 6:16). This was a common understanding of other passages of prophecy. Take a look at Isa 40:1-3. Notice that God tells Isaiah to tell "her", i.e. Israel, that her sins are paid for (v. 2). That is followed by a verse you probably know. It is a prophecy used in the Gospels for John the Baptist (Matt 3:3; Mark 1:3; John 1:23). These things to be done in the seventy weeks clearly seem to be Messianic as well.
2. "to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness": Following on the end of sin, iniquity will be atoned for as well and the resulting righteousness will be everlasting. Christ atoned for our sins (1 John 2:2) and ushered in the Kingdom of God, which will be everlasting, though it is not yet fully here until Christ returns.
3. "to seal both vision and prophet": This line concerns a ratification of God's visions and prophecies that we can find throughout the rest of the Old Testament. The idea here is that when Christ's work is complete (the cross and resurrection) it will be a Divine confirmation of everything that God has said would happen.
4. "to anoint a most holy place": There are some good exegetical arguments that show that this could be rendered "to anoint a most holy (thing) or (one)" instead of "place". This would fit with the idea that we are talking about Christ's sacrifice and that he is being anointed as the one who would fulfill the obligation to the law and the head of the new covenant. This also fits well with verse 25 that speaks of a coming "anointed one", as it discusses the timing of the prophecy in detail.
This is the end of part 1. The emphasis here is that this prophecy is Messianic. It concerns Jesus Christ. Specifically, it concerns his sacrifice on the cross that covered our sin and has inaugurated the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Next time, we'll cover verse 25. In this verse we will get into all the timing issues concerning the prophecy.
There probably are not many scripture passages more argued about within Christianity than this one. The timing of end time events is always a much talked about topic. What I want to do here is offer some of my own thoughts that have come about as I have studied and read about this passage. There is an obvious timing element to this prophecy, and that is the real center of the debate about it. To what or whom does the timing refer? When does the clock start? When did it end? How do we compare calendars to figure out exact dates for what we may think it means? All these questions and more matter. Let's get started.
First things first. Daniel has recognized that Jeremiah's seventy years of desolation's (Jer 25:11; 29:10) of Jerusalem are nearly passed (9:1, 2) and that God's mercy will soon be realized among the Jews. Realizing this, Daniel prays (9:3-19). Mainly, he repents for Israel of all the evil that they have done against God and begs for His mercy. As a result, Gabriel comes to give Daniel (and us!) insight into what the future holds (9:20-23). That is where we will pick up the interpretation.
Verse 24: The seventy weeks can also be translated seventy sevens (also in verses 25, 26). Most commentators think this means that the overall time period being discussed is 70 weeks of years or 490 years (70 weeks x 7 years/week=490years). The weeks are for "your people" and "your holy city". I think we can agree that this is the Jews and Jerusalem. Gabriel is relating this prophecy to Daniel, so this seems to be straightforward. Daniel's people are the Jews and his holy city would be Jerusalem, where the temple mount is (the temple is no longer there and the 2nd temple is yet to be rebuilt). After that, there are 6 items listed that will happen in the seventy weeks: finish transgression, end sin, atone for iniquity, start righteousness forever, seal vision and prophet, and anoint a holy place. The early Church fathers who commented on this passage all thought that these things had to do with Christ (for example Theodotion 150 AD and Jerome 400 AD).
1. "to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin": The only thing that put an end to sin is Christ's sacrifice. It is through His blood that we can be free of the evil influence of sin that enslaves us (Rom 6:16). This was a common understanding of other passages of prophecy. Take a look at Isa 40:1-3. Notice that God tells Isaiah to tell "her", i.e. Israel, that her sins are paid for (v. 2). That is followed by a verse you probably know. It is a prophecy used in the Gospels for John the Baptist (Matt 3:3; Mark 1:3; John 1:23). These things to be done in the seventy weeks clearly seem to be Messianic as well.
2. "to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness": Following on the end of sin, iniquity will be atoned for as well and the resulting righteousness will be everlasting. Christ atoned for our sins (1 John 2:2) and ushered in the Kingdom of God, which will be everlasting, though it is not yet fully here until Christ returns.
3. "to seal both vision and prophet": This line concerns a ratification of God's visions and prophecies that we can find throughout the rest of the Old Testament. The idea here is that when Christ's work is complete (the cross and resurrection) it will be a Divine confirmation of everything that God has said would happen.
4. "to anoint a most holy place": There are some good exegetical arguments that show that this could be rendered "to anoint a most holy (thing) or (one)" instead of "place". This would fit with the idea that we are talking about Christ's sacrifice and that he is being anointed as the one who would fulfill the obligation to the law and the head of the new covenant. This also fits well with verse 25 that speaks of a coming "anointed one", as it discusses the timing of the prophecy in detail.
This is the end of part 1. The emphasis here is that this prophecy is Messianic. It concerns Jesus Christ. Specifically, it concerns his sacrifice on the cross that covered our sin and has inaugurated the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Next time, we'll cover verse 25. In this verse we will get into all the timing issues concerning the prophecy.
Monday, October 24, 2016
How much do you read the Bible?
Probably the most commonly talked about spiritual discipline in the Church is Bible reading. Every Christian realizes that they should be reading the Bible every day and, in my experience, most Christians don't believe they are reading the Bible enough, even if they are reading every day. So, what should be done about it?
For starters, we have to connect the idea that Bible reading should be done, to the results promised in the word of God. Why should we read the Bible? Let's take a look.
2 Timothy 3:16, 17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
John 17:17
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
Psalm 1:1, 2
Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night.
So we see that the word of God is useful for training in righteousness and enables us to be complete, that it sanctifies us when we read it and that it is a blessing when we delight in it. Many other scriptures could be offered, but they all pretty much fall in the categories presented in the above verses. I think most people reading this are on board so far. They see the need to read the Bible and read it more. They see the truth in the verses presented about how the word can shape our life. How do we turn that knowledge into action so that we can actually reap the benefits of consistently reading God's word?
I think the answer is screen time. This used to be just TV time, but now with the advances in technology and the pervasiveness of the use of Facebook, YouTube, Instagram and other social media as well as just plain old surfing the Internet, researchers call this screen time. When considering the time we spend in front of screens, there is ample time to read more of the Bible daily. Tape recorded versions of the Bible have proven that you can read through the Bible in 71 hours, so strap in and get busy. Just kidding. That is a stark number though; what does it mean? "The average person in the United States watches that much television [71 hours] in less than two weeks." (Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life by Donald S. Whitney, page 29) That is about 5 hours a day for two weeks on average. The book I am quoting from was written in 1991. How much has that increased since then? The Nielsen report from the 4th quarter of 2014 reports that electronic media time per day for the average US citizen was 11 hours. When you remove the radio time, that's about 8 hours a day in front of screens. (2) That would be 112 hours in two weeks. You could read the Bible 1.5 times through in that period.
Now, I am not suggesting that anyone give up TV (and their entire life!) to sit around and read the Bible cover to cover every two weeks. But, if we crunch some of these numbers we can turn this into useful data. Let's start big.
1. If, instead of 8 hours screen time, you spent the 8 hours reading the Bible, what would you end up with? You could read through the Bible every 9 days. That would be 40 times through in 1 year.
2. How about 7 hours reading the Bible? Completed every 10 days. 36 times per year.
3. 6 hours? Every 12 days. 30 times per year.
4. 5 hours? Every 14 days. 26 times per year.
5. 4 hours? Every 18 days. 20 times per year.
6. 3 hours? Every 24 days. 15 times per year.
7. 2 hours? Every 36 days. 11 times per year.
8. 1 hour? Every 71 days. 5 times per year.
Most of these numbers seem pretty ridiculous. I doubt many people could truly read for 4-8 hours a day. But, I bet there are some people that could read for 2-3 hours and I would guarantee that almost everyone in the Church could read for 1 hour a day. How would you like to read through the Bible 5 times per year? How do you think that would change you over the course of a year if you were constantly allowing God's word to wash over you intellectually and spiritually day in and day out like the ebb and flow of the ocean tides? I dare say you would be a radically different person that looked and thought more like Jesus Christ. If you are a disciple of the Lord, don't you want that?
I want to finish by offering you more practical information. Below is a list of times for reading each book of the Bible. These are averages, so you may be a little faster or slower, but it will give you a general idea. This can help you to plan your reading time. For instance, it takes 3.5 hours to read Genesis. There are 50 chapters in the book. You could split that into 4, hour-long sessions (4 days). That means you should read 13, 13, 12, and 12 chapters on those days. Using numbers like this may seem to take all the emotional spontaneity out of reading the Bible, but, it allows you to stay on track and be disciplined in your spiritual life which the apostle Paul compares to running a race in order to win. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27:
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Just as Paul says he does not run aimlessly, neither do professional runners. They plan their training and race strategy and they execute it to the best of their ability. You can do the same with reading the Bible if you will commit to a disciplined life of daily Bible intake.
For starters, we have to connect the idea that Bible reading should be done, to the results promised in the word of God. Why should we read the Bible? Let's take a look.
2 Timothy 3:16, 17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
John 17:17
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
Psalm 1:1, 2
Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night.
So we see that the word of God is useful for training in righteousness and enables us to be complete, that it sanctifies us when we read it and that it is a blessing when we delight in it. Many other scriptures could be offered, but they all pretty much fall in the categories presented in the above verses. I think most people reading this are on board so far. They see the need to read the Bible and read it more. They see the truth in the verses presented about how the word can shape our life. How do we turn that knowledge into action so that we can actually reap the benefits of consistently reading God's word?
I think the answer is screen time. This used to be just TV time, but now with the advances in technology and the pervasiveness of the use of Facebook, YouTube, Instagram and other social media as well as just plain old surfing the Internet, researchers call this screen time. When considering the time we spend in front of screens, there is ample time to read more of the Bible daily. Tape recorded versions of the Bible have proven that you can read through the Bible in 71 hours, so strap in and get busy. Just kidding. That is a stark number though; what does it mean? "The average person in the United States watches that much television [71 hours] in less than two weeks." (Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life by Donald S. Whitney, page 29) That is about 5 hours a day for two weeks on average. The book I am quoting from was written in 1991. How much has that increased since then? The Nielsen report from the 4th quarter of 2014 reports that electronic media time per day for the average US citizen was 11 hours. When you remove the radio time, that's about 8 hours a day in front of screens. (2) That would be 112 hours in two weeks. You could read the Bible 1.5 times through in that period.
Now, I am not suggesting that anyone give up TV (and their entire life!) to sit around and read the Bible cover to cover every two weeks. But, if we crunch some of these numbers we can turn this into useful data. Let's start big.
1. If, instead of 8 hours screen time, you spent the 8 hours reading the Bible, what would you end up with? You could read through the Bible every 9 days. That would be 40 times through in 1 year.
2. How about 7 hours reading the Bible? Completed every 10 days. 36 times per year.
3. 6 hours? Every 12 days. 30 times per year.
4. 5 hours? Every 14 days. 26 times per year.
5. 4 hours? Every 18 days. 20 times per year.
6. 3 hours? Every 24 days. 15 times per year.
7. 2 hours? Every 36 days. 11 times per year.
8. 1 hour? Every 71 days. 5 times per year.
Most of these numbers seem pretty ridiculous. I doubt many people could truly read for 4-8 hours a day. But, I bet there are some people that could read for 2-3 hours and I would guarantee that almost everyone in the Church could read for 1 hour a day. How would you like to read through the Bible 5 times per year? How do you think that would change you over the course of a year if you were constantly allowing God's word to wash over you intellectually and spiritually day in and day out like the ebb and flow of the ocean tides? I dare say you would be a radically different person that looked and thought more like Jesus Christ. If you are a disciple of the Lord, don't you want that?
I want to finish by offering you more practical information. Below is a list of times for reading each book of the Bible. These are averages, so you may be a little faster or slower, but it will give you a general idea. This can help you to plan your reading time. For instance, it takes 3.5 hours to read Genesis. There are 50 chapters in the book. You could split that into 4, hour-long sessions (4 days). That means you should read 13, 13, 12, and 12 chapters on those days. Using numbers like this may seem to take all the emotional spontaneity out of reading the Bible, but, it allows you to stay on track and be disciplined in your spiritual life which the apostle Paul compares to running a race in order to win. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27:
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Just as Paul says he does not run aimlessly, neither do professional runners. They plan their training and race strategy and they execute it to the best of their ability. You can do the same with reading the Bible if you will commit to a disciplined life of daily Bible intake.
| Book | Time | Book | Time | |||||||
| Genesis | 3.5h | Matthew | 2.5h | |||||||
| Exodus | 3h | Mark | 1.5h | |||||||
| Leviticus | 2h | Luke | 1.5h | |||||||
| Numbers | 3h | John | 2h | |||||||
| Deuteronomy | 2.5h | Acts | 2.25h | |||||||
| Joshua | 1.75h | Romans | 1h | |||||||
| Judges | 1.75h | 1 Corinthians | 1h | |||||||
| Ruth | 15m | 2 Corinthians | 40m | |||||||
| 1-2 Samuel | 4h | Galatians | 20m | |||||||
| 1-2 Kings | 4.25h | Ephesians | 20m | |||||||
| 1-2 Chronicles | 4.5h | Philippians | 14m | |||||||
| Ezra | 40m | Colossians | 13m | |||||||
| Nehemiah | 1h | 1 Thessalonians | 12m | |||||||
| Esther | 30m | 2 Thessalonians | 7m | |||||||
| Job | 1.75h | 1 Timothy | 16m | |||||||
| Psalms | 5h | 2 Timothy | 11m | |||||||
| Proverbs | 1.75h | Titus | 7m | |||||||
| Ecclesiastes | 30m | Philemon | 3m | |||||||
| Song of Songs | 20m | Hebrews | 45m | |||||||
| Isaiah | 3.75h | James | 16m | |||||||
| Jeremiah | 4h | 1 Peter | 16m | |||||||
| Lamentations | 20m | 2 Peter | 10m | |||||||
| Ezekiel | 3.75h | 1 John | 16m | |||||||
| Daniel | 1.25h | 2 John | 2m | |||||||
| Hosea | 30m | 3 John | 2m | |||||||
| Joel | 12m | Jude | 4m | |||||||
| Amos | 25m | Revelation | 1.25h | |||||||
| Obadiah | 4m | |||||||||
| Jonah | 8m | |||||||||
| Micah | 20m | |||||||||
| Nahum | 8m | |||||||||
| Habakkuk | 9m | |||||||||
| Zephaniah | 10m | |||||||||
| Haggai | 7m | |||||||||
| Zechariah | 40m | |||||||||
| Malachi | 11m |
Sunday, January 24, 2016
Pastor Darrell Cox, Lead Pastor of Trinity Worship Center, Part 2
In the first installment Darrell and I covered his life up to being hired as TWC's pastor in 1997. We pick up his story there and continue to the present day. Enjoy!
Brian: Last time we finished in 1997. We talked about when you got to Trinity and they had a vision for growth. You guys weren't in this building, right?
Darrell: No. This church from 1924 to 1997 was at the James and Harris Street location in east Burlington. God began to move on the hearts of the leadership, the pastor, the council that it was time to move. It was time to move out and begin to grow beyond that current location and that building. So that's when the big steps were made to come and purchase this property at 3157 South Church Street and begin to draw plans for the first building on this campus. So it was a huge risk, a huge step of faith. It was expensive and this was an impossibility for a church of 175 people, but their faith was very large. They just believed this was what God was calling them to do and they were going to do it.
Brian: That's interesting to me just because when I talked to you about this church and the prayer group that started this church and the move to this location and now Triad School of Ministry (TSOM). God has always put a burden on people here at TWC to really take that step in a big way.
Darrell: Yes, I agree. It's not been one person. It's not been a one leader kind of effort. God has moved on groups. That's what's made, I think, this church such a strong church over the years and still today. We don't stake out, for instance, TSOM is a big step of faith and we don't have all of the answers but this has been very much a team effort. We all feel that this is the right thing to do. To develop and deploy leaders to build the kingdom. Not just here in Burlington, but, really, all over the world.
Brian: I wanted to back up. I forgot. You talked about when God called you the last time and He spoke to you. I thought it was interesting that you said you still took time to pray and fast, to be sure even though He spoke to you. Would you tell younger Darrell anything else? I think you said you tell people, "be sure." If the passion is there over time then you know you've got something.
Darrell: Yes, because if the call is genuine, the call is only gonna increase in intensity over time. So, yes, I think I would have done exactly the same thing today. I would recommend, I would tell other young people who are called to do the same thing. Take some time, consult others that you trust. I think for me, that period of prayer and fasting was as much about the next step as anything. I knew God was calling me, but I just needed Him to help me fill in some of the blanks. So, it was a matter of, OK, I'm willing to do whatever you're asking me to do, but, I'm not sure what to do next. Help me to know what to do. So, for me, it was OK, I know I need to go to school again, where is that? What am I gonna do with the house? How are we gonna survive? You know, I just took some time to begin to ask those questions.
Brian: When did this building get built and you guys moved over here?
Darrell: This campus has happened over 3 phases. The first phase was where we worship on Sundays. That was our first building in 1997. In September of 1997 that building was completed. That was, I think, 8 years after we purchased this property. So, it took that long to plan and raise the funds, develop a strategy for this campus. So, yeah, we built that first building in 1997, in the year 2000 we built the second building which is where the current treehouse, the current children's ministry wing is in that building. The building we're sitting in today (we were in the conference room for the interview), this is called building C; our third building completed in 2014? Time, it's been a busy year, I guess it was 2014. So, 3 distinct phases...
Brian: Was that the plan all along or is that just something that happened over time?
Darrell: You know, amazingly, it was the plan all along. The plan from the beginning, from 1989, was to build 3 phases here. And, when you go back and look at the plans, of course there were changes, but, the whole idea was that we would build a worship center first, then we would build a wing with classroom space and fellowship space and then we would build a multi-purpose building with a gymnasium. You know, it's not exact, but, the plan all along has been to become a church of about 1,000 people on Sunday mornings, to eventually plant a satellite church or plant another church in the area. The plan all along was to begin a Hispanic ministry. So, here we are, some years later, enjoying the reality of the vision God gave a group of people back in the 80's.
Brian: That's really incredible. I would not have guessed in a million years that you guys had the ABC plan.
Darrell: It has been. It's something that we've been committed to over the years. God gave us this vision. Thank God for the people who, back in the 80's were willing to do what seemed to be laughable to a lot of people. We did not have the resources then to do any of this. When we built this building, building C, it was completed in 2014. We were far more able to afford this than the church was able to afford building A back in 1997 and that's one thing we had to convince some of the church family because of the expense of this building and the fact that our indebtedness was increasing significantly. We had to remind everyone that this is far less risky than what we did in 1997.
Brian: Just in general, how has TWC changed?
Darrell: How long do you have? (big laugh) We have changed so much. You know, from a church of 175 to a church of over 800 people on Sunday mornings to the fact, of course, that our location has changed, we changed our name. Our culture has changed in that, of course, our worship style has changed significantly from 1997. Our nomenclature has changed so that we're careful to make sure that unchurched people who worship with us or maybe visiting with us or are unsaved understand what we're talking about. We try to stay away from religious nomenclature. Our strategies have changed in terms of outreach in terms of the way that the church on a day to day basis is run. We're much more staff centered as a church.
Brian: What do you mean by staff centered?
Darrell: Staff on a day to day basis handles the operations of the church, handles the decisions of the church.
Brian: Versus?
Darrell: Versus a centralized government based operation. So, I think the whole culture of governance, the culture of language and worship. We've established a culture of values that we live by. I can't even begin to describe how far we've come in all of those areas since 1997 and we were good in 1997 and we were a very strong church, but, I think we've come so far in our ability to reach the unchurched community.
Brian: How has it stayed the same?
Darrell: It has stayed the same in that we are still committed to the word of God. We are committed to the gospel. We're changing our method of delivering the message, but the message is still the same. I think the heart of the church is the same in that we love one another. We truly love one another. There is a sense of family and I know that we say that TWC is a home where anyone can meet and follow Jesus and that seems new, but, I think the heart of the church has always been that we wanted to be a home where anyone can meet and follow Jesus. We just had not articulated that as one of our values. There's so many people who love the Lord and are so committed. We have people here who were with us in 1997 who have seen all the change and some of the change has been painful. But, they have been so committed and faithful to this church. Yeah, that has not changed. This group of committed and faithful people who love the Lord and love one another.
Brian: So, lets just talk about Pastor Darrell. What is your day to day like?
Darrell: Well that's changed since 1997. Back then I handled almost anything administratively that was handled day to day. Finances, all the visitation or most of it.
Brian: How many pastors were there at that time?
Darrell: In 1997? There was one. Just me. We had one other staff person and that was our office administrator. My day to day role was consumed with making sure that the sick were visited and taking care of shut-ins, handling any office functions that had to be handled and preparing to preach on not only Sunday mornings but Sunday nights and Wednesdays as well. That's changed significantly since then in that now I'm a leader of leaders. There are 6 other pastors that I'm responsible for who do so much of the work of the ministry and, of course, they have leaders and volunteers who they're responsible for. So, I'm, my role is more, my view is more of a 30,000 foot view of the church. So that I'm spending most of my time now with leaders, pastors. I'm spending a lot more time now preparing for Sunday mornings. Because Sunday morning is so crucial to our reaching the community. So I spend much more time now thinking about the future. Setting strategy and setting the course for the future. So, my typical day is if I'm not meeting with leaders, I'm preparing for Sunday and if I'm not preparing for Sunday, I'm thinking about the future.
Brian: So the Sunday morning sermon duties, those are primarily yours?
Darrell: Yes.
Brian: You consider that your major role here?
Darrell: I think so, because, you know, Perry Noble says that the best way to reach your community is to have an excellent Sunday morning experience. I feel the weight of Sunday morning in that this is when the church comes together to hear God's word and to hear directly from Him. And, so, I feel that so strongly every week now that I want to make sure that I'm clear. I want to make sure that I'm concise and that I've heard from God. And that I'm communicating that effectively. So, I really work hard to make sure that I'm ready every Sunday morning to do just that three times in a row.
Brian: How do you prepare for your sermons? I assume you spend a lot of time in prayer.
Darrell: I do. I do, because I understand every week that I can't do this. I'm not gifted to do this. I've got to have help; supernatural help. And that never goes away. Some people think that, oh, you've done this for a long time and you're a large church now and so, it must be easier and it's not. It's not any easier because I understand my limitations. So, even to the time that I'm ready to go into the worship center, I have a room that I'm in for several minutes. I'm on my knees asking God to help me. Help me one more time to do this because I can't on my own.
Brian: How about the intellectual side? Just putting the sermon together.
Darrell: Well, there is a lot of pre-planning that goes into that. I mean, I know what I'm going to be preaching well in advance of Sunday. In fact, I know what I'm going to be preaching through Easter. Some pastors are way ahead of that. I find it hard to go much further than 2-3 months in advance because the world changes and the needs of people change and I try to respond to that. But, some thinking in advance, I'm looking at the text, I'm finding the text that seems to really speak into the issues that we want to deal with for that message series. I'm reading that text over and over. I'm doing research. I'll listen to what others are saying. I'll read what others are saying about that text. And then I'll for myself figure out what God wants me to say about that text. So, it's a matter of spending lots and lots of hours in legal pads. I use legal pads still. I'm brainstorming. I'm writing down the thoughts of others. I'm finding illustrations. I'm thinking of stories that can relate to the message and after I've done all of my research, typically I'm finished with that by Wednesday, and then on Thursday I bring out my laptop and begin to put the message together. For instance, this message, for this Sunday, I think I had about 30 pages of legal pad pages just crammed with notes and ideas and illustrations and thoughts and so I'll take those 30 pages and I'll create an outline of here's what I think this passage is saying and here are the thoughts that I want to convey and then I'll go through my 30 pages and I'll figure out what it is that I've researched and what it is that fits the outline. And then I begin to put that together into a manuscript. I will do a full manuscript with illustrations and points that I particularly want to say a certain way, transitions I want to say a certain way. I'll do a full manuscript. In fact, I typically have that finished by Thursday night. From that manuscript then I will break that down into a 8.5 by 11 sheet of paper folded over that I'll actually take with me to the platform. That'll have key things that I want to say in certain ways, just in case I forget. I will spend hours and hours and hours with the manuscript just making sure I've got it in my heart. So that I can, in a very conversational style, deliver that manuscript without looking at anything. It's so ingrained in me, it's so a part of me by Sunday morning. Typically, I never, I don't really have to refer to anything I've written down. I've spent so much time with it.
Brian: Your examples are always very good. Relating a concept through a story or an illustration. Amber and I are always talking about at least one of your illustrations after Sunday morning.
Darrell: People love stories. Jesus told stories you know. Jesus brought the principle to real life talking about something people understood. I really try to make sure that I can tell the story and not read it. I'm really excited. I'm preaching in 2 weeks. I'm not preaching this Sunday. I'm preaching in 2 weeks, on the 31st and I'm really excited about a couple of the stories that I've found that I think really connect with the message.
Brian: And then you go stand on the edge. Have you ever fallen?
Darrell: I've almost fallen a few times. But I stand on the edge because I want to be as close to the people as I can possibly get. I really want to feel the audience. I want to be able to look into their eyes and to really be a part of the group. Yeah, I get as close as I can without falling. Sometimes my toes are sticking over the edge, I know, and I have to back off a bit.
Brian: So your major duty is the sermons and the other part of that is leading leaders. The overhead view and everybody else is dealing with the specifics in their area of ministry.
Darrell: Exactly. I just cannot get into the specifics. I can't answer every question anymore. I don't know every event that's going on anymore. Sometimes I drive by the church, the parking lot will be full of cars and I'm thinking, I have no idea what's going on. But that's beautiful because other leaders are making things happen and it's not all dependent on me. I could fade away from the scene and the church goes on. I feel that if I can develop leaders that can carry this ministry on, then I've done my work. I don't want to minimize the importance of my leadership role. The communication on Sunday is important. That is my responsibility. Through the week, I spend a lot time with the leaders. I just spent an hour and a half with one of the leaders finding out how things are going in their ministry and how can I resource you better and how are you doing? and how is your family doing? and how can I support you? I was just praying with them, you know. I spend a lot of time each week making sure that I'm staying in touch with those leaders and that I'm communicating my vision to them about how I want the church to continue to go forward. We spend a lot of time here at Trinity talking about the future. I just had a pastor's meeting this morning. All the pastors here at this table talking about some things for the future. So we're always dreaming and looking forward. Leaders always see things before anyone else sees them. You're thinking it, you're dreaming it, you're seeing it before others do. So, that's what we spend a lot of time doing here.
Brian: Speaking of the future. For the next 5 years, what do you envision TWC doing?
Darrell: Well, we have such a good foundation here and we've made so many changes. In fact, 2015, I cannot tell you the number of changes that were made around here. It's been a little bit painful for some folks. But, staff transitions and some schedule changes and some, we've changed the way we do some things. We've cut some things. We've added some programs. So, this year our focus is going to be on strengthening our teams, our volunteer teams. Not only recruiting, adding number, but helping our volunteer teams become more healthy. Raising the level of expectation. Raising the level of accountability. We're also going to be focusing on groups, making the church more group centered than ever. The Sunday morning experience, as important as it is, is not the only experience that makes us strong. The group experience is going to be vital to our future really. Everything that happens in the church doesn't happen on Sunday. We understand that. So, this year we are going to be very aggressive in increasing the number of home groups meeting regularly off-campus. So, groups, teams, strengthening our Hispanic ministry which is a huge opportunity for us. God dropped into our lap here, so many Hispanic leaders who are so faithful and passionate and hard-working. We want to see that ministry grow significantly. Perhaps even double in 2016. We believe the Hispanic ministry is key to our becoming a church of more than 1,000 worshipers on Sunday. In 5 years, I think by 5 years we will have planted another congregation. Either a mulitsite or a pure plant. Probably in the Greensboro area or possibly Charlotte, dependent on the opportunities that God opens up for us. But certainly within 5 years we will have planted another church. Perhaps even 2. TSOM is a huge focus in 2016. In the next 5 years we want to see that ministry become significant ministry in terms of developing leaders from Trinity and deploying leaders throughout the world. So, TSOM has so much potential. Look at the kingdom potential if we develop, if we are able to develop 50 leaders every year, 50 young leaders ages 18-30 who will fill volunteer and staff positions here at Trinity and then fill needed staff and volunteer positions in other churches in our area and beyond. The kingdom potential is just limitless. So yes, in the next 5 years, TSOM is going to be a big focus for us and planting another congregation, planting another church actually.
Brian: For people who don't know, how is TWC structured?
Darrell: We are a pastor led church on a day to day basis. We are governed by the local church administrative council. A group of 9 church members who are selected by the membership of the church. Who partner with the pastors in leading the church. This is very much a team led church. Yes, I'm the lead pastor. Yes, I'm setting the course, I'm setting the vision. Yes, I'm the chief communicator, but, it's a team effort in the sense that the council and the pastors work very closely together to make sure that the mission stays red hot. That the mission is at the forefront of everything that we do. That we are resourced appropriately. One of the major functions of the council is to track our vision, track our results, and track our budget. Make sure that, not only are we accountable in all of those areas but that our strategy is right. I love the fact that on so many levels here we're accountable to one another. I love the fact that we're part of a network of 150 churches called the Cornerstone Conference and that there is a bishop who oversees all of those churches and that there is a council who oversees the conference. So, all these levels of authority and accountability, I think, make this place a safe place to do kingdom work.
Brian: Multiple layers of accountability. That is what I hear when you talk about all of this.
Darrell: All kinds of layers. And it goes beyond the Cornerstone Conference and then to the IPHC. We have a bishop, we have a council of bishops who oversee the conferences, the conferences oversee the churches. So, there is incredible independence amongst the churches though. We have a sort of a dual type of government in the IPHC in the local churches. There is an episcopal and a congregational type government in the sense that yes we have a bishop, yes, there is oversight on the conference level, but, at the same time, the churches govern themselves. The churches are setting their course and selecting their pastors. The churches are setting their vision so that there is this broad spectrum of style and culture in our churches in the Cornerstone Conference.
Brian: As far as the budget goes, you guys actually set a budget yearly, you dole out money to ministries from what I understand. You talked about that once on stage. Just talk about that a little bit. Not specifically the money, but you guys set a budget.
Darrell: You know, this church is so well structured when it comes to finances. The finance committee works diligently on our budget every year with input from the pastors and other ministry leaders. They review the numbers and they review the budget requests and then they put together a budget that they feel is reasonable for us. Then the council gives its approval to that budget each year. They review it, then they give their approval. And we live by the budget. We're not a slave to it, but we pay attention to the budget really every day. All of our expenses are monitored and purchases are approved and monitored by our executive pastor, Keith Brown. We have the safeguards in place, you know, the annual CPA review. All of the safeguards when it comes to handling the offerings received online and the offerings received in the worship center on Sundays. And the budget is reviewed every time the council gets together. In its regular meetings, the council reviews the budget, reviews the financial position of the church. I've never been a part of a church that has as many safeguards and layers of accountability in place and it's just so healthy and I really hope the people of the church, of this church family to really feel that and know that. I don't think we talk about that as much as we ought to, really.
Brian: Yeah, that's really what I was looking for, just how the money is controlled. I think a lot of people assume that you've got a church with a lead pastor like this and you just sit in your office with a half a million dollars and your like; Hey, Travis, you need money, here you go.
Darrell: Even I, and I don't make many purchases, have to have those purchases approved by the executive pastor, and I have a budget for miscellaneous expenses that I would incur as lead pastor. It's very minimal, but it's enough to take care of the things I need to do. So, the good thing is that I have, though I'm very well aware of where we are financially, I get a weekly report, I get a weekly cash report. I know exactly how much money is in the bank and how much is in reserves. And how much we owe on the mortgage. I know all of that, but I'm very fortunate that our executive pastor handles all of the day to day financial processes for us. I will say that the church is very conservative in the way that we budget. We're setting aside a percentage of what is given to reserves in the event of a catastrophic emergency, an unforeseen financial crisis that we are able to live through that kind of situation with our reserves.
Brian: I think a common sentiment just about the church in general and the gospel is that people don't really care what you have to say until they see that you care. I kind of know some of the things we do as a church. Could you just speak to that a little bit?
Darrell: I wish we could talk more about what this church does to support individuals and families to come to the side of individuals and families. I know this past Sunday, Roger Barefoot just sat on the stool at offering time and he talked about the man we had been working with for weeks really. He was homeless, he was very well known to the police here, he was very well known to the community. He was actually sleeping behind the old theater here on Church St. and he just started coming around the church and he would stay in our courtyard sometimes during the day in the sunshine trying to stay warm. We began to reach out to him, give him food and we helped him wash his clothes, we gave him a new set of clothes. We bought him a train ticket to get back home to Washington. To me, that incident expresses so much the character of this church. A man who probably most in our community would bypass, we actually reached out to him. And so, there is story after story of families here within our church who run into severe financial crisis that we've helped with rent payments, utility payments; we've helped with food, we've given counsel, we've helped them find homes. We wouldn't have time to tell about every time we've cared for Trinity families and then those outside the church to be honest with you. We get so many requests from people passing through, from people in the community who aren't able to find help through normal social agencies. We've been willing to at least do something to try to help. Every week we feed 40-50 families through our food pantry. Every week...of course Schoolstock, I think the whole community by now knows every year we invite 5,000 people to the mall and we give 2,000 children their school supplies and it's more than school supplies. We give them a fun day. I think that everyone knows about that event. The bash on the block events in some of the neighborhoods that are really hard hit and probably get the least attention from anyone in the community. The way that we reach out to those neighborhoods. So, that's just a part of what we do to care for the community. I wish I could tell every story. I wish that everyone could understand just how often we respond to deep needs, counseling for instance. The amount of time we spend with families trying to navigate through crucial issues. The fact that we reach across the world through world missions. Giving, we support 15 missionaries on a monthly basis who are doing a great job overseas. Every month we are getting them a check to keep them on the field. In fact, we gave all of them, I think all of them a raise, a significant raise. It's because of the faithful giving of the people of the church. So, yeah, we care. We care deeply and I think anyone who has been on the receiving end of this kind of care understands better than anyone that Trinity is unique, I think, in it's heart for people.
Brian: I think its easy to see that people see School Stock, its a huge event. They see this big old campus and all the people coming and they just assume you're not doing anything else. Like your putting in your time at School Stock and then you're done but I know there's a lot of things going on.
Darrell: Oh I know. They don't know that every week we're here for Celebrate Recovery. That those leaders, Tom and Juanita Moore, their leadership team they are here every single week, even at Thanksgiving, even at Christmas. They never take a week off to help those who are hurting with hurts, habits, and hang ups. Divorce Care, you know, most weeks are here we run that I think 3 semesters a year for those men and women who are just their hearts are broken. Just the brokenness in that room is unimaginable and we're here for them. We're getting ready to start Grief Share for individuals who suffered a huge loss in their life and need to talk to someone about that. That's a brand new ministry that's coming. I think sometime in February, we haven't set an exact date yet. We're looking for ways that we can come along side men and women and kids who are hurting.
Brian: Lets change gears a little bit and just talk about Christian life in general. I've got a couple of topics that in my short time as a Christian are just stuff that I deal with so I just thought I'd ask about it. So, I think the Bible is obviously a huge part of our lives as Christians. Its a huge part, its God's word to us, but I think too on a world scale it's more important than people realize. They don't realize how connected the Bible is to culture in general. Especially in the west but it's also I think the most misunderstood book in the world, by Christians and non-Christians, what do you do to better understand the Bible when you study?
Darrell: Well, the first thing that I do is ask the Holy Spirit to help me understand. That's the obvious beginning point. Ask the Holy Spirit to illuminate his word for me. And i try to make it personal. For instance, I read the prophet Isaiah and I know Isaiah is talking to a broken people and giving encouragement for the future to a people who have been oppressed and have lost everything. I just try to put myself in that story and I personalize it to the point that he's talking to me. There's hope for me, there's a future for me, there's something there in the future that God's planned for me. That he hasn't stopped loving me. And so I try to insert myself into the story. I try to insert myself into the narrative and some might think that's egotistical, its not about you, its about God, but I want this to make a difference in my life. It has to. I mean this matters so much to me that yeah, I'll insert myself into the story. I tend to read it very slowly. I tend to take an entire summer for instance and I know in your class your teaching us, and I like this, to read the whole thing and get the whole thing, and I'm going to try that strategy, I like that. But one summer I just took the whole summer and I just read the Minor Prophets and I just read it slowly. If it was just one chapter that morning, that's fine to sorta let it steep in me, sorta like a teabag. It steeps in the water then over time the water changes so yeah that's for me. I take it slow and easy and I personalize it and I ask the Holy Spirit for help.
Brian: Do you have a favorite book or favorite passage or do you like the whole thing?
Darrell: Oh man, I love Isaiah. I mean, like, I spent a whole summer one summer just on my front porch with the prophet Isaiah. I just love the hope there, I love the whole pointing to Christ, you know, as the final hope of God's people in the world. I love Colossians. I love the beautiful language describing Christ and who He is for us. Yeah, those are my 2 favorite books.
Brian: Do you memorize?
Darrell: I'm not good at memorizing scripture. I'm not. I have a good short term photographic memory. I can look at something short term. That's why on Sunday mornings for me, I can remember the passage and I can remember what I'm going to say and the whole outline because I've been with it, but I'm not great at memorizing. Memorization is hard work.
Brian: We have actually talked about this next question a little bit. It's about the supernatural in the American church. There are a lot of Christians that don't believe in the bodily resurrection. Would you like to just expound on that? There is just so much unbelief in the church when it comes to God's supernatural activity. It kind of shocked me when I converted. I just figured everybody believed that He could do these things and everybody doesn't.
Darrell: And the sad thing is that every pastor doesn't. And that's what bothers me more. I had lunch with a couple of pastor friends that I used to be in fellowship with. This was several years ago and it was about Easter. It was just before Easter and we were just talking about what we were going to be preaching about on Easter Sunday. And, of course I said I'm going to talk about the resurrection. I'm going to talk about the reality of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And they're like; "The bodily resurrection of Jesus?" I said yes. He rose from the grave bodily. They said; "Do you believe that?" And I said Yes, I do believe that. And then they began to explain how that they had learned, you know, in seminary; nothing against seminary, I'm seminary trained. But how that they had learned in seminary and do believe that it's not necessary that Jesus bodily rose from the grave. That when you believe in Him, He resurrects in your heart and that's where the resurrection really happens and that is what the Bible is trying to teach us. And I just came away from that luncheon sad because if a pastor, if a Christian cannot believe in something as magnificent as the bodily resurrection of Jesus then what can we believe in. Is there anything miraculous that can ever happen in a person's life if we can't believe that Mary was a virgin and that Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit. If we can't believe that He was born of a virgin as the scripture tells us, then it's like, what can we believe in? So, yes, I agree, I think we are losing and we have lost in so many ways the belief that God can do the impossible things. The things that are beyond anything we can begin to imagine or comprehend as the scripture says.
Brian: I think, do you know Bart Ehrman? From UNC?
Darrell: No, I don't.
Brian: He is a New Testament scholar. He was a fundamentalist Protestant and went to college and lost that. He is now the Bible's biggest critic. At some conservative seminaries he goes and debates but at a lot liberal seminaries he goes and talks. It's incredible to me that people can read the scripture and not think that God has shepherded His word down to us in this age and that we can't trust it and believe it.
Darrell: Well, you know, the scripture talks about those who think they're so wise and yet they're foolish. And I just think that we have begun to believe that we're so smart and so capable that we don't even need the supernatural anymore. The fact is that I've experienced the supernatural in my life. I think anyone who has been changed by the grace of Christ is a supernatural miracle. I don't know, I think that when we walk away from our belief in the supernatural, we walk away from the great possibilities that are available in Christ for men and women to change and to become everything that He has called us to become and for the church to become what He has designed the church to become. What are we if we can't believe in the supernatural? As the apostle Paul said, why bother? It's like your wasting your time. Do something else with your time and energy.
Brian: I think the bodily resurrection is something that must be argued for. But, how about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the spiritual gifts. Should we argue among other denominations for those things? Or is that something we need to put aside to better get along?
Darrell: No, I don't think that we should put aside our firm conviction that the gifts of the Spirit are for today. They're necessary. They are an effective tool or weapon for us in this culture. It is a distinctive of ours that we still believe and that we still embrace the gifts and seek the gifts. It's one of the reasons that the Pentecostal church worldwide, the Pentecostal movements and denominations are growing when others are dying. So it's what gives TWC and churches like us a distinctive edge in terms of helping people connect with the reality of God. His presence, His power. The supernatural aspects and things of God that just cannot be understood or really comprehended. So, no, I will tell you this, we believe in the power and the person of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said this is what's gonna give you power. The Holy Spirit is going to come and empower you to be my witnesses. I think the moment that we lay that aside or refuse to talk about the gifts of the Spirit and that we refuse to argue our case is the moment that we walk away from what makes us a very distinct movement.
Brian: Kind of along those same lines. This is something that I have observed in the church. In the last 10-15 years or so there has been a de-emphasis on charismatic worship. Prolonged worship, being drunk in the spirit, being slain in the spirit and that sort of thing. Has that affected TWC in any way?
Darrell: I grew up in the Pentecostal world, so I've seen it all. I cannot tell you exactly...when I came here in 1997 I got a feel for the culture of this church as a Pentecostal church that was not largely charismatic in its worship style. So that though we were Pentecostal, there was a sense of order in the worship experience. Not that the gifts were not manifested at times, and they still are at times here. Not that someone didn't dance or that someone wasn't slain in the spirit. I know all of that happened. And I cannot say that there has been an entire shift away from that throughout the Pentecostal world because Pentecostal churches are so diverse. Dependent on the leadership, dependent on the culture; you could walk into a Pentecostal church and find all of that happening on any given Sunday morning. And then you can walk into Pentecostal churches like this one, where you can sense that God is very much here and that God is very much present. There is power in the worship. There is power in the whole experience, but it's very much in order. You know, the gifts are embraced and the gifts are certainly welcome, the Holy Spirit's welcome to move and work in any way that He wants. That we're more interested in pursuing the presence of God. We're more interested in pursuing Him and His character than we are in pursuing the gifts in that worship experience. So, in some sectors of Pentecostalism, there is an expectation that the gifts are manifested in every worship service for that worship service to be an effective service or a meaningful service. That is not true here. That is not true in a lot of Pentecostal churches that are really intent on reaching the community.
Brian: So, it's more a question of personality rather than they're right and we're wrong or vice versa?
Darrell: I really think it is. I really think it's an understanding of the role of the Holy Spirit and the gifts in the worship experience. We believe that the gifts are manifested not just on Sunday morning. The gift of knowledge, the gift of wisdom, discernment, tongues. That's not just a Sunday morning experience, not just reserved for that hour and a half. The gifts are given for us to be effective witnesses of Christ. So, yeah, I think personality plays so much into that. The personality of this church and the focus of this church is very much more gospel centered and we want you to encounter Jesus Christ this morning. We believe that we are most effectively going to do that through worship and the word.
Brian: Good answer.
Darrell: I hope so. And that's a sensitive subject to a lot of Pentecostal churches.
Brian: It's a sensitive subject to the church as a whole. You have people having conferences to denounce all that stuff.
Darrell: Very much aware of that. I don't understand why there is such a move to denounce what as I read the scriptures, or read the New Testament, the gifts were very much at work and I don't see any real confirmation that those gifts ceased with the work of the apostles. And I can tell you from personal experience. The work of the Holy Spirit in my life and the manifestation of the gifts in my life has been so real and powerful. So, I'm not the only witness to that.
Brian: I have one more question about Christian life. What do you think is something every Christian should be doing or doing more of just day to day?
Darrell: I think just stopping and breathing and taking a few moments with the Lord. I just think that is the hardest thing for us is to just stop and just sit. Even in Asian cultures, Eastern cultures, non-Christian cultures; those who are most disciplined have learned to sit in silence for at least 10 minutes of their day. I just wonder, I wonder what would happen in every Christian's life if we just 10 minutes sat and just let our attention be drawn to something, someone bigger than us who really has a plan for our day and for our lives. And to just let our hearts and ears be open to what He might have to say to us. I don't think we ever, I think most of us don't stop long enough for that to happen. I am going to guess and believe that most Christians aren't reading the Bible. They're not. I think most probably are not opening them at all unless they're in a group study or Sunday mornings. I think most Christians are not reading the Bible for themselves. I think very little time is spent in prayer. I think if we heard more from God for ourselves, then all the other things; serving, giving, treating one another the way we are supposed to treat one another, that it will flow out of that time with God.
Brian: It's important for people to give to support the church. Do you ever feel awkward getting up there to ask people for money?
Darrell: It is and you know, I'm gonna be doing a series on giving. Actually on finances, not just on giving. It's called Spent. We are going to be doing that in February because we know that right here after Christmas most of us are broke. We are going to be talking about debt and spending and we're gonna certainly talk about giving as well. I want everyone to understand that we talk about giving not so much so that we'll have enough money to do ministry because here's the thing; God's going to take care of it. God's going to give us what we need. He is going to do it through givers. But, we're not worried about that. He has taken care of us. We would love for every individual and family to understand the blessing of giving. The life changing impact of trusting God with the tithe and then giving generously above and beyond the tithe. We would love for everyone to know how supernatural that becomes and what a joy it can be to give. That's what we would rather do. We can't do that every week, sometimes we'll talk about, you know, we'll take a teaching moment and you know; I didn't do this last year but, again, this year I'm going to spend 3 weeks, maybe 4 weeks depending on whether or not it snows this weekend and we aren't able to have church. I hope I can spend 4 weeks just talking about this very issue. It's not something we want from people, it's something we want for people. So, it's not awkward because, you know, you look throughout the scripture when people went to worship God they never went empty-handed. They always had something they were bringing to God. It's not just God's expectation, it was, this is just what you do when you're coming into the presence of the king. You're delighted to give Him something. And so the amazing thing is that He has promised that if you'll give, He'll give back more. And so, yeah, that's what we would love for every single family.
Brian: We are going to take another shift to politics and culture.
Darrell: Oh, fun. So, what I think about Trump? Is that it? (laughing)
Brian: No, but some touchy questions for sure. How is TWC protecting itself legally from a potential same-sex marriage lawsuit? You know, if a gay couple comes in and says; "I want you to marry us in your building." I assume that you are going to politely turn them away.
Darrell: Yes.
Brian: There is always the possibility that they would return with subpoenas and lawsuits.
Darrell: Yes, that's a very real possibility and we're bracing for that eventuality. Our fallback at this point, our position at this point is that the IPHC, our authoritative body has issued a declaration that no minister will perform a same-sex marriage, none of our campuses, none of our properties will be used for same-sex marriage ceremonies. So, really at this point that's our only defense and any constitutional help we might have in the sense that our values and our polity mandates that we are not allowed to do same-sex marriage. Even if we were, I would not. So I would risk the possibility subpoena and court action. This is something that we are bracing ourselves for. I'm sure that it is coming. This is a great threat to the church. I don't know how this is going to pan out legally for us. But, we are going to stand our ground. To the very end of it we'll stand our ground.
Brian: Now we'll talk about Trump. Just kidding. Not anybody in particular. It's an election year. As Christians, how do we go about selecting someone for President? We are supposed to carry around a worldview that doesn't consider ourselves or our country or even the globe, but God. We are supposed to carry His worldview around. So, how do we carry that into picking somebody for President?
Darrell: This is the toughest election cycle for you to ask me that question. And what I tell the people here at Trinity; and I've never endorsed a candidate and I won't. We probably talk less about politics around here than most churches. That's by design. I'm not interested in endorsing candidates. But, I do encourage our body, our family to vote and to vote prayerfully. And to consider the candidates stance on the issues of the day as those issues relate to the Biblical position on issues such as: the definition of marriage, abortion, their sense of the role of church in a person's life, their character. And again it's so difficult this year because, and really every year because the candidates who sometimes take the correct stance on social issues of the day sometimes are not the most qualified to lead the nation. But as a matter of principle I can tell you that Debbie and I, though there are no litmus issues for us, there are certain issues, those that I just described that are important to us. And we would not support a candidate who was on the other side of those issues of the word of God. That's what I'll encourage the people to do for whoever is nominated.
Brian: We live here and we interact with this world that is corrupt. How do we live in this world that's corrput?
Darrell: Yeah, we're in this world but not of it. And sometimes that's a delicate walk. The scripture mandate is that we're to be different, that we're to be distinct and we're not to be ashamed of that. We're not here to be weird. We're not here to be judgmental. We're not here to be full of condemnation. But we are to be distinct. There should be something about us that is flowing in a different direction than the rest of the world. There should be something about us that points to something different, something better and again without being weird. I think we should understand the culture. I think we should be students of the culture. I think the church makes a big mistake when the church refuses to engage the culture in any way. When all the church wants to do is hate the culture. When maybe we could do a better job in understanding the culture so that we can relate to the culture and communicate the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ to a culture. That is one thing that our team is trying to get a better handle on now. Because there are so many things in the culture we don't understand. For instance, we don't understand why people only attend church, why dedicated Christians only attend church once a month. And that now the standard in our culture is that once a month church attendance on Sundays is adequate. And so that's very frustrating for church leaders but we're trying to work through the question instead of being frustrated by it. How can we, not adjust, but how can we relate to that? And how can we figure out a way to reach those who have decided they're only going to come to church once a month. Do we get better with technology? Do we get better with social media? Do we make options available for those once a month attendees so that they can at least stay connected with the church? Those are issues we're wrestling with. We're trying, instead of spending so much time being frustrated with the direction culture is headed; let's figure out where the culture is headed and let's find more effective ways to communicate this changeless gospel to this changing culture.
Brian: The last thing I have here is your pastors listed. So, in a word or a phrase, ready?
Darrell: Yes!
Brian: Roger.
Darrell: Joy, energy.
Brian: Keith.
Darrell: Steady. So steady every day.
Brian: Brad.
Darrell: Passion.
Brian: Travis.
Darrell: Travis is newer so let me think for minute. He's the organized guy. He's writing everything down. Systematically structured. That's Travis.
Brian: Nikki.
Darrell: Leader.
Brian: Taylor.
Darrell: He's so much, Taylor's so much. He's the media guy. He has this eye for what works. I think in so many ways he is the soul of the staff. He's the soul. He feels things. He can feel whether something is right for us or not.
Brian: Last time we finished in 1997. We talked about when you got to Trinity and they had a vision for growth. You guys weren't in this building, right?
Darrell: No. This church from 1924 to 1997 was at the James and Harris Street location in east Burlington. God began to move on the hearts of the leadership, the pastor, the council that it was time to move. It was time to move out and begin to grow beyond that current location and that building. So that's when the big steps were made to come and purchase this property at 3157 South Church Street and begin to draw plans for the first building on this campus. So it was a huge risk, a huge step of faith. It was expensive and this was an impossibility for a church of 175 people, but their faith was very large. They just believed this was what God was calling them to do and they were going to do it.
Brian: That's interesting to me just because when I talked to you about this church and the prayer group that started this church and the move to this location and now Triad School of Ministry (TSOM). God has always put a burden on people here at TWC to really take that step in a big way.
Darrell: Yes, I agree. It's not been one person. It's not been a one leader kind of effort. God has moved on groups. That's what's made, I think, this church such a strong church over the years and still today. We don't stake out, for instance, TSOM is a big step of faith and we don't have all of the answers but this has been very much a team effort. We all feel that this is the right thing to do. To develop and deploy leaders to build the kingdom. Not just here in Burlington, but, really, all over the world.
Brian: I wanted to back up. I forgot. You talked about when God called you the last time and He spoke to you. I thought it was interesting that you said you still took time to pray and fast, to be sure even though He spoke to you. Would you tell younger Darrell anything else? I think you said you tell people, "be sure." If the passion is there over time then you know you've got something.
Darrell: Yes, because if the call is genuine, the call is only gonna increase in intensity over time. So, yes, I think I would have done exactly the same thing today. I would recommend, I would tell other young people who are called to do the same thing. Take some time, consult others that you trust. I think for me, that period of prayer and fasting was as much about the next step as anything. I knew God was calling me, but I just needed Him to help me fill in some of the blanks. So, it was a matter of, OK, I'm willing to do whatever you're asking me to do, but, I'm not sure what to do next. Help me to know what to do. So, for me, it was OK, I know I need to go to school again, where is that? What am I gonna do with the house? How are we gonna survive? You know, I just took some time to begin to ask those questions.
Brian: When did this building get built and you guys moved over here?
Darrell: This campus has happened over 3 phases. The first phase was where we worship on Sundays. That was our first building in 1997. In September of 1997 that building was completed. That was, I think, 8 years after we purchased this property. So, it took that long to plan and raise the funds, develop a strategy for this campus. So, yeah, we built that first building in 1997, in the year 2000 we built the second building which is where the current treehouse, the current children's ministry wing is in that building. The building we're sitting in today (we were in the conference room for the interview), this is called building C; our third building completed in 2014? Time, it's been a busy year, I guess it was 2014. So, 3 distinct phases...
Brian: Was that the plan all along or is that just something that happened over time?
Darrell: You know, amazingly, it was the plan all along. The plan from the beginning, from 1989, was to build 3 phases here. And, when you go back and look at the plans, of course there were changes, but, the whole idea was that we would build a worship center first, then we would build a wing with classroom space and fellowship space and then we would build a multi-purpose building with a gymnasium. You know, it's not exact, but, the plan all along has been to become a church of about 1,000 people on Sunday mornings, to eventually plant a satellite church or plant another church in the area. The plan all along was to begin a Hispanic ministry. So, here we are, some years later, enjoying the reality of the vision God gave a group of people back in the 80's.
Brian: That's really incredible. I would not have guessed in a million years that you guys had the ABC plan.
Darrell: It has been. It's something that we've been committed to over the years. God gave us this vision. Thank God for the people who, back in the 80's were willing to do what seemed to be laughable to a lot of people. We did not have the resources then to do any of this. When we built this building, building C, it was completed in 2014. We were far more able to afford this than the church was able to afford building A back in 1997 and that's one thing we had to convince some of the church family because of the expense of this building and the fact that our indebtedness was increasing significantly. We had to remind everyone that this is far less risky than what we did in 1997.
Brian: Just in general, how has TWC changed?
Darrell: How long do you have? (big laugh) We have changed so much. You know, from a church of 175 to a church of over 800 people on Sunday mornings to the fact, of course, that our location has changed, we changed our name. Our culture has changed in that, of course, our worship style has changed significantly from 1997. Our nomenclature has changed so that we're careful to make sure that unchurched people who worship with us or maybe visiting with us or are unsaved understand what we're talking about. We try to stay away from religious nomenclature. Our strategies have changed in terms of outreach in terms of the way that the church on a day to day basis is run. We're much more staff centered as a church.
Brian: What do you mean by staff centered?
Darrell: Staff on a day to day basis handles the operations of the church, handles the decisions of the church.
Brian: Versus?
Darrell: Versus a centralized government based operation. So, I think the whole culture of governance, the culture of language and worship. We've established a culture of values that we live by. I can't even begin to describe how far we've come in all of those areas since 1997 and we were good in 1997 and we were a very strong church, but, I think we've come so far in our ability to reach the unchurched community.
Brian: How has it stayed the same?
Darrell: It has stayed the same in that we are still committed to the word of God. We are committed to the gospel. We're changing our method of delivering the message, but the message is still the same. I think the heart of the church is the same in that we love one another. We truly love one another. There is a sense of family and I know that we say that TWC is a home where anyone can meet and follow Jesus and that seems new, but, I think the heart of the church has always been that we wanted to be a home where anyone can meet and follow Jesus. We just had not articulated that as one of our values. There's so many people who love the Lord and are so committed. We have people here who were with us in 1997 who have seen all the change and some of the change has been painful. But, they have been so committed and faithful to this church. Yeah, that has not changed. This group of committed and faithful people who love the Lord and love one another.
Brian: So, lets just talk about Pastor Darrell. What is your day to day like?
Darrell: Well that's changed since 1997. Back then I handled almost anything administratively that was handled day to day. Finances, all the visitation or most of it.
Brian: How many pastors were there at that time?
Darrell: In 1997? There was one. Just me. We had one other staff person and that was our office administrator. My day to day role was consumed with making sure that the sick were visited and taking care of shut-ins, handling any office functions that had to be handled and preparing to preach on not only Sunday mornings but Sunday nights and Wednesdays as well. That's changed significantly since then in that now I'm a leader of leaders. There are 6 other pastors that I'm responsible for who do so much of the work of the ministry and, of course, they have leaders and volunteers who they're responsible for. So, I'm, my role is more, my view is more of a 30,000 foot view of the church. So that I'm spending most of my time now with leaders, pastors. I'm spending a lot more time now preparing for Sunday mornings. Because Sunday morning is so crucial to our reaching the community. So I spend much more time now thinking about the future. Setting strategy and setting the course for the future. So, my typical day is if I'm not meeting with leaders, I'm preparing for Sunday and if I'm not preparing for Sunday, I'm thinking about the future.
Brian: So the Sunday morning sermon duties, those are primarily yours?
Darrell: Yes.
Brian: You consider that your major role here?
Darrell: I think so, because, you know, Perry Noble says that the best way to reach your community is to have an excellent Sunday morning experience. I feel the weight of Sunday morning in that this is when the church comes together to hear God's word and to hear directly from Him. And, so, I feel that so strongly every week now that I want to make sure that I'm clear. I want to make sure that I'm concise and that I've heard from God. And that I'm communicating that effectively. So, I really work hard to make sure that I'm ready every Sunday morning to do just that three times in a row.
Brian: How do you prepare for your sermons? I assume you spend a lot of time in prayer.
Darrell: I do. I do, because I understand every week that I can't do this. I'm not gifted to do this. I've got to have help; supernatural help. And that never goes away. Some people think that, oh, you've done this for a long time and you're a large church now and so, it must be easier and it's not. It's not any easier because I understand my limitations. So, even to the time that I'm ready to go into the worship center, I have a room that I'm in for several minutes. I'm on my knees asking God to help me. Help me one more time to do this because I can't on my own.
Brian: How about the intellectual side? Just putting the sermon together.
Darrell: Well, there is a lot of pre-planning that goes into that. I mean, I know what I'm going to be preaching well in advance of Sunday. In fact, I know what I'm going to be preaching through Easter. Some pastors are way ahead of that. I find it hard to go much further than 2-3 months in advance because the world changes and the needs of people change and I try to respond to that. But, some thinking in advance, I'm looking at the text, I'm finding the text that seems to really speak into the issues that we want to deal with for that message series. I'm reading that text over and over. I'm doing research. I'll listen to what others are saying. I'll read what others are saying about that text. And then I'll for myself figure out what God wants me to say about that text. So, it's a matter of spending lots and lots of hours in legal pads. I use legal pads still. I'm brainstorming. I'm writing down the thoughts of others. I'm finding illustrations. I'm thinking of stories that can relate to the message and after I've done all of my research, typically I'm finished with that by Wednesday, and then on Thursday I bring out my laptop and begin to put the message together. For instance, this message, for this Sunday, I think I had about 30 pages of legal pad pages just crammed with notes and ideas and illustrations and thoughts and so I'll take those 30 pages and I'll create an outline of here's what I think this passage is saying and here are the thoughts that I want to convey and then I'll go through my 30 pages and I'll figure out what it is that I've researched and what it is that fits the outline. And then I begin to put that together into a manuscript. I will do a full manuscript with illustrations and points that I particularly want to say a certain way, transitions I want to say a certain way. I'll do a full manuscript. In fact, I typically have that finished by Thursday night. From that manuscript then I will break that down into a 8.5 by 11 sheet of paper folded over that I'll actually take with me to the platform. That'll have key things that I want to say in certain ways, just in case I forget. I will spend hours and hours and hours with the manuscript just making sure I've got it in my heart. So that I can, in a very conversational style, deliver that manuscript without looking at anything. It's so ingrained in me, it's so a part of me by Sunday morning. Typically, I never, I don't really have to refer to anything I've written down. I've spent so much time with it.
Brian: Your examples are always very good. Relating a concept through a story or an illustration. Amber and I are always talking about at least one of your illustrations after Sunday morning.
Darrell: People love stories. Jesus told stories you know. Jesus brought the principle to real life talking about something people understood. I really try to make sure that I can tell the story and not read it. I'm really excited. I'm preaching in 2 weeks. I'm not preaching this Sunday. I'm preaching in 2 weeks, on the 31st and I'm really excited about a couple of the stories that I've found that I think really connect with the message.
Brian: And then you go stand on the edge. Have you ever fallen?
Darrell: I've almost fallen a few times. But I stand on the edge because I want to be as close to the people as I can possibly get. I really want to feel the audience. I want to be able to look into their eyes and to really be a part of the group. Yeah, I get as close as I can without falling. Sometimes my toes are sticking over the edge, I know, and I have to back off a bit.
Brian: So your major duty is the sermons and the other part of that is leading leaders. The overhead view and everybody else is dealing with the specifics in their area of ministry.
Darrell: Exactly. I just cannot get into the specifics. I can't answer every question anymore. I don't know every event that's going on anymore. Sometimes I drive by the church, the parking lot will be full of cars and I'm thinking, I have no idea what's going on. But that's beautiful because other leaders are making things happen and it's not all dependent on me. I could fade away from the scene and the church goes on. I feel that if I can develop leaders that can carry this ministry on, then I've done my work. I don't want to minimize the importance of my leadership role. The communication on Sunday is important. That is my responsibility. Through the week, I spend a lot time with the leaders. I just spent an hour and a half with one of the leaders finding out how things are going in their ministry and how can I resource you better and how are you doing? and how is your family doing? and how can I support you? I was just praying with them, you know. I spend a lot of time each week making sure that I'm staying in touch with those leaders and that I'm communicating my vision to them about how I want the church to continue to go forward. We spend a lot of time here at Trinity talking about the future. I just had a pastor's meeting this morning. All the pastors here at this table talking about some things for the future. So we're always dreaming and looking forward. Leaders always see things before anyone else sees them. You're thinking it, you're dreaming it, you're seeing it before others do. So, that's what we spend a lot of time doing here.
Brian: Speaking of the future. For the next 5 years, what do you envision TWC doing?
Darrell: Well, we have such a good foundation here and we've made so many changes. In fact, 2015, I cannot tell you the number of changes that were made around here. It's been a little bit painful for some folks. But, staff transitions and some schedule changes and some, we've changed the way we do some things. We've cut some things. We've added some programs. So, this year our focus is going to be on strengthening our teams, our volunteer teams. Not only recruiting, adding number, but helping our volunteer teams become more healthy. Raising the level of expectation. Raising the level of accountability. We're also going to be focusing on groups, making the church more group centered than ever. The Sunday morning experience, as important as it is, is not the only experience that makes us strong. The group experience is going to be vital to our future really. Everything that happens in the church doesn't happen on Sunday. We understand that. So, this year we are going to be very aggressive in increasing the number of home groups meeting regularly off-campus. So, groups, teams, strengthening our Hispanic ministry which is a huge opportunity for us. God dropped into our lap here, so many Hispanic leaders who are so faithful and passionate and hard-working. We want to see that ministry grow significantly. Perhaps even double in 2016. We believe the Hispanic ministry is key to our becoming a church of more than 1,000 worshipers on Sunday. In 5 years, I think by 5 years we will have planted another congregation. Either a mulitsite or a pure plant. Probably in the Greensboro area or possibly Charlotte, dependent on the opportunities that God opens up for us. But certainly within 5 years we will have planted another church. Perhaps even 2. TSOM is a huge focus in 2016. In the next 5 years we want to see that ministry become significant ministry in terms of developing leaders from Trinity and deploying leaders throughout the world. So, TSOM has so much potential. Look at the kingdom potential if we develop, if we are able to develop 50 leaders every year, 50 young leaders ages 18-30 who will fill volunteer and staff positions here at Trinity and then fill needed staff and volunteer positions in other churches in our area and beyond. The kingdom potential is just limitless. So yes, in the next 5 years, TSOM is going to be a big focus for us and planting another congregation, planting another church actually.
Brian: For people who don't know, how is TWC structured?
Darrell: We are a pastor led church on a day to day basis. We are governed by the local church administrative council. A group of 9 church members who are selected by the membership of the church. Who partner with the pastors in leading the church. This is very much a team led church. Yes, I'm the lead pastor. Yes, I'm setting the course, I'm setting the vision. Yes, I'm the chief communicator, but, it's a team effort in the sense that the council and the pastors work very closely together to make sure that the mission stays red hot. That the mission is at the forefront of everything that we do. That we are resourced appropriately. One of the major functions of the council is to track our vision, track our results, and track our budget. Make sure that, not only are we accountable in all of those areas but that our strategy is right. I love the fact that on so many levels here we're accountable to one another. I love the fact that we're part of a network of 150 churches called the Cornerstone Conference and that there is a bishop who oversees all of those churches and that there is a council who oversees the conference. So, all these levels of authority and accountability, I think, make this place a safe place to do kingdom work.
Brian: Multiple layers of accountability. That is what I hear when you talk about all of this.
Darrell: All kinds of layers. And it goes beyond the Cornerstone Conference and then to the IPHC. We have a bishop, we have a council of bishops who oversee the conferences, the conferences oversee the churches. So, there is incredible independence amongst the churches though. We have a sort of a dual type of government in the IPHC in the local churches. There is an episcopal and a congregational type government in the sense that yes we have a bishop, yes, there is oversight on the conference level, but, at the same time, the churches govern themselves. The churches are setting their course and selecting their pastors. The churches are setting their vision so that there is this broad spectrum of style and culture in our churches in the Cornerstone Conference.
Brian: As far as the budget goes, you guys actually set a budget yearly, you dole out money to ministries from what I understand. You talked about that once on stage. Just talk about that a little bit. Not specifically the money, but you guys set a budget.
Darrell: You know, this church is so well structured when it comes to finances. The finance committee works diligently on our budget every year with input from the pastors and other ministry leaders. They review the numbers and they review the budget requests and then they put together a budget that they feel is reasonable for us. Then the council gives its approval to that budget each year. They review it, then they give their approval. And we live by the budget. We're not a slave to it, but we pay attention to the budget really every day. All of our expenses are monitored and purchases are approved and monitored by our executive pastor, Keith Brown. We have the safeguards in place, you know, the annual CPA review. All of the safeguards when it comes to handling the offerings received online and the offerings received in the worship center on Sundays. And the budget is reviewed every time the council gets together. In its regular meetings, the council reviews the budget, reviews the financial position of the church. I've never been a part of a church that has as many safeguards and layers of accountability in place and it's just so healthy and I really hope the people of the church, of this church family to really feel that and know that. I don't think we talk about that as much as we ought to, really.
Brian: Yeah, that's really what I was looking for, just how the money is controlled. I think a lot of people assume that you've got a church with a lead pastor like this and you just sit in your office with a half a million dollars and your like; Hey, Travis, you need money, here you go.
Darrell: Even I, and I don't make many purchases, have to have those purchases approved by the executive pastor, and I have a budget for miscellaneous expenses that I would incur as lead pastor. It's very minimal, but it's enough to take care of the things I need to do. So, the good thing is that I have, though I'm very well aware of where we are financially, I get a weekly report, I get a weekly cash report. I know exactly how much money is in the bank and how much is in reserves. And how much we owe on the mortgage. I know all of that, but I'm very fortunate that our executive pastor handles all of the day to day financial processes for us. I will say that the church is very conservative in the way that we budget. We're setting aside a percentage of what is given to reserves in the event of a catastrophic emergency, an unforeseen financial crisis that we are able to live through that kind of situation with our reserves.
Brian: I think a common sentiment just about the church in general and the gospel is that people don't really care what you have to say until they see that you care. I kind of know some of the things we do as a church. Could you just speak to that a little bit?
Darrell: I wish we could talk more about what this church does to support individuals and families to come to the side of individuals and families. I know this past Sunday, Roger Barefoot just sat on the stool at offering time and he talked about the man we had been working with for weeks really. He was homeless, he was very well known to the police here, he was very well known to the community. He was actually sleeping behind the old theater here on Church St. and he just started coming around the church and he would stay in our courtyard sometimes during the day in the sunshine trying to stay warm. We began to reach out to him, give him food and we helped him wash his clothes, we gave him a new set of clothes. We bought him a train ticket to get back home to Washington. To me, that incident expresses so much the character of this church. A man who probably most in our community would bypass, we actually reached out to him. And so, there is story after story of families here within our church who run into severe financial crisis that we've helped with rent payments, utility payments; we've helped with food, we've given counsel, we've helped them find homes. We wouldn't have time to tell about every time we've cared for Trinity families and then those outside the church to be honest with you. We get so many requests from people passing through, from people in the community who aren't able to find help through normal social agencies. We've been willing to at least do something to try to help. Every week we feed 40-50 families through our food pantry. Every week...of course Schoolstock, I think the whole community by now knows every year we invite 5,000 people to the mall and we give 2,000 children their school supplies and it's more than school supplies. We give them a fun day. I think that everyone knows about that event. The bash on the block events in some of the neighborhoods that are really hard hit and probably get the least attention from anyone in the community. The way that we reach out to those neighborhoods. So, that's just a part of what we do to care for the community. I wish I could tell every story. I wish that everyone could understand just how often we respond to deep needs, counseling for instance. The amount of time we spend with families trying to navigate through crucial issues. The fact that we reach across the world through world missions. Giving, we support 15 missionaries on a monthly basis who are doing a great job overseas. Every month we are getting them a check to keep them on the field. In fact, we gave all of them, I think all of them a raise, a significant raise. It's because of the faithful giving of the people of the church. So, yeah, we care. We care deeply and I think anyone who has been on the receiving end of this kind of care understands better than anyone that Trinity is unique, I think, in it's heart for people.
Brian: I think its easy to see that people see School Stock, its a huge event. They see this big old campus and all the people coming and they just assume you're not doing anything else. Like your putting in your time at School Stock and then you're done but I know there's a lot of things going on.
Darrell: Oh I know. They don't know that every week we're here for Celebrate Recovery. That those leaders, Tom and Juanita Moore, their leadership team they are here every single week, even at Thanksgiving, even at Christmas. They never take a week off to help those who are hurting with hurts, habits, and hang ups. Divorce Care, you know, most weeks are here we run that I think 3 semesters a year for those men and women who are just their hearts are broken. Just the brokenness in that room is unimaginable and we're here for them. We're getting ready to start Grief Share for individuals who suffered a huge loss in their life and need to talk to someone about that. That's a brand new ministry that's coming. I think sometime in February, we haven't set an exact date yet. We're looking for ways that we can come along side men and women and kids who are hurting.
Brian: Lets change gears a little bit and just talk about Christian life in general. I've got a couple of topics that in my short time as a Christian are just stuff that I deal with so I just thought I'd ask about it. So, I think the Bible is obviously a huge part of our lives as Christians. Its a huge part, its God's word to us, but I think too on a world scale it's more important than people realize. They don't realize how connected the Bible is to culture in general. Especially in the west but it's also I think the most misunderstood book in the world, by Christians and non-Christians, what do you do to better understand the Bible when you study?
Darrell: Well, the first thing that I do is ask the Holy Spirit to help me understand. That's the obvious beginning point. Ask the Holy Spirit to illuminate his word for me. And i try to make it personal. For instance, I read the prophet Isaiah and I know Isaiah is talking to a broken people and giving encouragement for the future to a people who have been oppressed and have lost everything. I just try to put myself in that story and I personalize it to the point that he's talking to me. There's hope for me, there's a future for me, there's something there in the future that God's planned for me. That he hasn't stopped loving me. And so I try to insert myself into the story. I try to insert myself into the narrative and some might think that's egotistical, its not about you, its about God, but I want this to make a difference in my life. It has to. I mean this matters so much to me that yeah, I'll insert myself into the story. I tend to read it very slowly. I tend to take an entire summer for instance and I know in your class your teaching us, and I like this, to read the whole thing and get the whole thing, and I'm going to try that strategy, I like that. But one summer I just took the whole summer and I just read the Minor Prophets and I just read it slowly. If it was just one chapter that morning, that's fine to sorta let it steep in me, sorta like a teabag. It steeps in the water then over time the water changes so yeah that's for me. I take it slow and easy and I personalize it and I ask the Holy Spirit for help.
Brian: Do you have a favorite book or favorite passage or do you like the whole thing?
Darrell: Oh man, I love Isaiah. I mean, like, I spent a whole summer one summer just on my front porch with the prophet Isaiah. I just love the hope there, I love the whole pointing to Christ, you know, as the final hope of God's people in the world. I love Colossians. I love the beautiful language describing Christ and who He is for us. Yeah, those are my 2 favorite books.
Brian: Do you memorize?
Darrell: I'm not good at memorizing scripture. I'm not. I have a good short term photographic memory. I can look at something short term. That's why on Sunday mornings for me, I can remember the passage and I can remember what I'm going to say and the whole outline because I've been with it, but I'm not great at memorizing. Memorization is hard work.
Brian: We have actually talked about this next question a little bit. It's about the supernatural in the American church. There are a lot of Christians that don't believe in the bodily resurrection. Would you like to just expound on that? There is just so much unbelief in the church when it comes to God's supernatural activity. It kind of shocked me when I converted. I just figured everybody believed that He could do these things and everybody doesn't.
Darrell: And the sad thing is that every pastor doesn't. And that's what bothers me more. I had lunch with a couple of pastor friends that I used to be in fellowship with. This was several years ago and it was about Easter. It was just before Easter and we were just talking about what we were going to be preaching about on Easter Sunday. And, of course I said I'm going to talk about the resurrection. I'm going to talk about the reality of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And they're like; "The bodily resurrection of Jesus?" I said yes. He rose from the grave bodily. They said; "Do you believe that?" And I said Yes, I do believe that. And then they began to explain how that they had learned, you know, in seminary; nothing against seminary, I'm seminary trained. But how that they had learned in seminary and do believe that it's not necessary that Jesus bodily rose from the grave. That when you believe in Him, He resurrects in your heart and that's where the resurrection really happens and that is what the Bible is trying to teach us. And I just came away from that luncheon sad because if a pastor, if a Christian cannot believe in something as magnificent as the bodily resurrection of Jesus then what can we believe in. Is there anything miraculous that can ever happen in a person's life if we can't believe that Mary was a virgin and that Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit. If we can't believe that He was born of a virgin as the scripture tells us, then it's like, what can we believe in? So, yes, I agree, I think we are losing and we have lost in so many ways the belief that God can do the impossible things. The things that are beyond anything we can begin to imagine or comprehend as the scripture says.
Brian: I think, do you know Bart Ehrman? From UNC?
Darrell: No, I don't.
Brian: He is a New Testament scholar. He was a fundamentalist Protestant and went to college and lost that. He is now the Bible's biggest critic. At some conservative seminaries he goes and debates but at a lot liberal seminaries he goes and talks. It's incredible to me that people can read the scripture and not think that God has shepherded His word down to us in this age and that we can't trust it and believe it.
Darrell: Well, you know, the scripture talks about those who think they're so wise and yet they're foolish. And I just think that we have begun to believe that we're so smart and so capable that we don't even need the supernatural anymore. The fact is that I've experienced the supernatural in my life. I think anyone who has been changed by the grace of Christ is a supernatural miracle. I don't know, I think that when we walk away from our belief in the supernatural, we walk away from the great possibilities that are available in Christ for men and women to change and to become everything that He has called us to become and for the church to become what He has designed the church to become. What are we if we can't believe in the supernatural? As the apostle Paul said, why bother? It's like your wasting your time. Do something else with your time and energy.
Brian: I think the bodily resurrection is something that must be argued for. But, how about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the spiritual gifts. Should we argue among other denominations for those things? Or is that something we need to put aside to better get along?
Darrell: No, I don't think that we should put aside our firm conviction that the gifts of the Spirit are for today. They're necessary. They are an effective tool or weapon for us in this culture. It is a distinctive of ours that we still believe and that we still embrace the gifts and seek the gifts. It's one of the reasons that the Pentecostal church worldwide, the Pentecostal movements and denominations are growing when others are dying. So it's what gives TWC and churches like us a distinctive edge in terms of helping people connect with the reality of God. His presence, His power. The supernatural aspects and things of God that just cannot be understood or really comprehended. So, no, I will tell you this, we believe in the power and the person of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said this is what's gonna give you power. The Holy Spirit is going to come and empower you to be my witnesses. I think the moment that we lay that aside or refuse to talk about the gifts of the Spirit and that we refuse to argue our case is the moment that we walk away from what makes us a very distinct movement.
Brian: Kind of along those same lines. This is something that I have observed in the church. In the last 10-15 years or so there has been a de-emphasis on charismatic worship. Prolonged worship, being drunk in the spirit, being slain in the spirit and that sort of thing. Has that affected TWC in any way?
Darrell: I grew up in the Pentecostal world, so I've seen it all. I cannot tell you exactly...when I came here in 1997 I got a feel for the culture of this church as a Pentecostal church that was not largely charismatic in its worship style. So that though we were Pentecostal, there was a sense of order in the worship experience. Not that the gifts were not manifested at times, and they still are at times here. Not that someone didn't dance or that someone wasn't slain in the spirit. I know all of that happened. And I cannot say that there has been an entire shift away from that throughout the Pentecostal world because Pentecostal churches are so diverse. Dependent on the leadership, dependent on the culture; you could walk into a Pentecostal church and find all of that happening on any given Sunday morning. And then you can walk into Pentecostal churches like this one, where you can sense that God is very much here and that God is very much present. There is power in the worship. There is power in the whole experience, but it's very much in order. You know, the gifts are embraced and the gifts are certainly welcome, the Holy Spirit's welcome to move and work in any way that He wants. That we're more interested in pursuing the presence of God. We're more interested in pursuing Him and His character than we are in pursuing the gifts in that worship experience. So, in some sectors of Pentecostalism, there is an expectation that the gifts are manifested in every worship service for that worship service to be an effective service or a meaningful service. That is not true here. That is not true in a lot of Pentecostal churches that are really intent on reaching the community.
Brian: So, it's more a question of personality rather than they're right and we're wrong or vice versa?
Darrell: I really think it is. I really think it's an understanding of the role of the Holy Spirit and the gifts in the worship experience. We believe that the gifts are manifested not just on Sunday morning. The gift of knowledge, the gift of wisdom, discernment, tongues. That's not just a Sunday morning experience, not just reserved for that hour and a half. The gifts are given for us to be effective witnesses of Christ. So, yeah, I think personality plays so much into that. The personality of this church and the focus of this church is very much more gospel centered and we want you to encounter Jesus Christ this morning. We believe that we are most effectively going to do that through worship and the word.
Brian: Good answer.
Darrell: I hope so. And that's a sensitive subject to a lot of Pentecostal churches.
Brian: It's a sensitive subject to the church as a whole. You have people having conferences to denounce all that stuff.
Darrell: Very much aware of that. I don't understand why there is such a move to denounce what as I read the scriptures, or read the New Testament, the gifts were very much at work and I don't see any real confirmation that those gifts ceased with the work of the apostles. And I can tell you from personal experience. The work of the Holy Spirit in my life and the manifestation of the gifts in my life has been so real and powerful. So, I'm not the only witness to that.
Brian: I have one more question about Christian life. What do you think is something every Christian should be doing or doing more of just day to day?
Darrell: I think just stopping and breathing and taking a few moments with the Lord. I just think that is the hardest thing for us is to just stop and just sit. Even in Asian cultures, Eastern cultures, non-Christian cultures; those who are most disciplined have learned to sit in silence for at least 10 minutes of their day. I just wonder, I wonder what would happen in every Christian's life if we just 10 minutes sat and just let our attention be drawn to something, someone bigger than us who really has a plan for our day and for our lives. And to just let our hearts and ears be open to what He might have to say to us. I don't think we ever, I think most of us don't stop long enough for that to happen. I am going to guess and believe that most Christians aren't reading the Bible. They're not. I think most probably are not opening them at all unless they're in a group study or Sunday mornings. I think most Christians are not reading the Bible for themselves. I think very little time is spent in prayer. I think if we heard more from God for ourselves, then all the other things; serving, giving, treating one another the way we are supposed to treat one another, that it will flow out of that time with God.
Brian: It's important for people to give to support the church. Do you ever feel awkward getting up there to ask people for money?
Darrell: It is and you know, I'm gonna be doing a series on giving. Actually on finances, not just on giving. It's called Spent. We are going to be doing that in February because we know that right here after Christmas most of us are broke. We are going to be talking about debt and spending and we're gonna certainly talk about giving as well. I want everyone to understand that we talk about giving not so much so that we'll have enough money to do ministry because here's the thing; God's going to take care of it. God's going to give us what we need. He is going to do it through givers. But, we're not worried about that. He has taken care of us. We would love for every individual and family to understand the blessing of giving. The life changing impact of trusting God with the tithe and then giving generously above and beyond the tithe. We would love for everyone to know how supernatural that becomes and what a joy it can be to give. That's what we would rather do. We can't do that every week, sometimes we'll talk about, you know, we'll take a teaching moment and you know; I didn't do this last year but, again, this year I'm going to spend 3 weeks, maybe 4 weeks depending on whether or not it snows this weekend and we aren't able to have church. I hope I can spend 4 weeks just talking about this very issue. It's not something we want from people, it's something we want for people. So, it's not awkward because, you know, you look throughout the scripture when people went to worship God they never went empty-handed. They always had something they were bringing to God. It's not just God's expectation, it was, this is just what you do when you're coming into the presence of the king. You're delighted to give Him something. And so the amazing thing is that He has promised that if you'll give, He'll give back more. And so, yeah, that's what we would love for every single family.
Brian: We are going to take another shift to politics and culture.
Darrell: Oh, fun. So, what I think about Trump? Is that it? (laughing)
Brian: No, but some touchy questions for sure. How is TWC protecting itself legally from a potential same-sex marriage lawsuit? You know, if a gay couple comes in and says; "I want you to marry us in your building." I assume that you are going to politely turn them away.
Darrell: Yes.
Brian: There is always the possibility that they would return with subpoenas and lawsuits.
Darrell: Yes, that's a very real possibility and we're bracing for that eventuality. Our fallback at this point, our position at this point is that the IPHC, our authoritative body has issued a declaration that no minister will perform a same-sex marriage, none of our campuses, none of our properties will be used for same-sex marriage ceremonies. So, really at this point that's our only defense and any constitutional help we might have in the sense that our values and our polity mandates that we are not allowed to do same-sex marriage. Even if we were, I would not. So I would risk the possibility subpoena and court action. This is something that we are bracing ourselves for. I'm sure that it is coming. This is a great threat to the church. I don't know how this is going to pan out legally for us. But, we are going to stand our ground. To the very end of it we'll stand our ground.
Brian: Now we'll talk about Trump. Just kidding. Not anybody in particular. It's an election year. As Christians, how do we go about selecting someone for President? We are supposed to carry around a worldview that doesn't consider ourselves or our country or even the globe, but God. We are supposed to carry His worldview around. So, how do we carry that into picking somebody for President?
Darrell: This is the toughest election cycle for you to ask me that question. And what I tell the people here at Trinity; and I've never endorsed a candidate and I won't. We probably talk less about politics around here than most churches. That's by design. I'm not interested in endorsing candidates. But, I do encourage our body, our family to vote and to vote prayerfully. And to consider the candidates stance on the issues of the day as those issues relate to the Biblical position on issues such as: the definition of marriage, abortion, their sense of the role of church in a person's life, their character. And again it's so difficult this year because, and really every year because the candidates who sometimes take the correct stance on social issues of the day sometimes are not the most qualified to lead the nation. But as a matter of principle I can tell you that Debbie and I, though there are no litmus issues for us, there are certain issues, those that I just described that are important to us. And we would not support a candidate who was on the other side of those issues of the word of God. That's what I'll encourage the people to do for whoever is nominated.
Brian: We live here and we interact with this world that is corrupt. How do we live in this world that's corrput?
Darrell: Yeah, we're in this world but not of it. And sometimes that's a delicate walk. The scripture mandate is that we're to be different, that we're to be distinct and we're not to be ashamed of that. We're not here to be weird. We're not here to be judgmental. We're not here to be full of condemnation. But we are to be distinct. There should be something about us that is flowing in a different direction than the rest of the world. There should be something about us that points to something different, something better and again without being weird. I think we should understand the culture. I think we should be students of the culture. I think the church makes a big mistake when the church refuses to engage the culture in any way. When all the church wants to do is hate the culture. When maybe we could do a better job in understanding the culture so that we can relate to the culture and communicate the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ to a culture. That is one thing that our team is trying to get a better handle on now. Because there are so many things in the culture we don't understand. For instance, we don't understand why people only attend church, why dedicated Christians only attend church once a month. And that now the standard in our culture is that once a month church attendance on Sundays is adequate. And so that's very frustrating for church leaders but we're trying to work through the question instead of being frustrated by it. How can we, not adjust, but how can we relate to that? And how can we figure out a way to reach those who have decided they're only going to come to church once a month. Do we get better with technology? Do we get better with social media? Do we make options available for those once a month attendees so that they can at least stay connected with the church? Those are issues we're wrestling with. We're trying, instead of spending so much time being frustrated with the direction culture is headed; let's figure out where the culture is headed and let's find more effective ways to communicate this changeless gospel to this changing culture.
Brian: The last thing I have here is your pastors listed. So, in a word or a phrase, ready?
Darrell: Yes!
Brian: Roger.
Darrell: Joy, energy.
Brian: Keith.
Darrell: Steady. So steady every day.
Brian: Brad.
Darrell: Passion.
Brian: Travis.
Darrell: Travis is newer so let me think for minute. He's the organized guy. He's writing everything down. Systematically structured. That's Travis.
Brian: Nikki.
Darrell: Leader.
Brian: Taylor.
Darrell: He's so much, Taylor's so much. He's the media guy. He has this eye for what works. I think in so many ways he is the soul of the staff. He's the soul. He feels things. He can feel whether something is right for us or not.
Sunday, January 3, 2016
Reading the Bible Part 3
This is part 3 of reading the Bible. It goes over finding the problems and answers that the author lays out in his writing. There are several worksheets. The first worksheet is a way to help you outline each problem and easily list the answer with it. The second worksheet contains a list of questions to help you find what the author is trying to get you to do or understand. The third worksheet is for journaling so that you can reflect on what you've just read means to you. The fourth worksheet is just a place to write unanswered questions so that you can easily go back to them and if you determine you can't find the answer in that particular book that you are reading then hopefully you will be able to find it while reading another book of the Bible. These worksheets are always available for free at the top of our page under "free worksheets". We would love to hear if these lessons are helping you in any way!
Happy Reading!
Amber
Friday, December 11, 2015
Literary Genres in the Bible, Part 2
Video length: 30:41
A.
Prophets
1. Paragraph: God tells Habakkuk
that He is about to do a wondrous work
2. Oracle: Habakkuk complains about
Israel’s treatment, God answers
3. Book: Israel rejects God, He
punishes them but promises them hope in the end
4. Sinaitic covenant (the Law): God’s
chastisement of Israel through the prophets is all related to the Law and
Israel’s inability/unwillingness to obey God’s commands
5. Bible: God must constantly call
Israel to repentance for their disobedience which He does through His prophets.
This sets up the significance of Jesus’ sacrifice by showing that nothing we
could ever do would merit God’s forgiveness. Even the people with the Law from
Heaven could not do it!!! How can we ever expect to?
6. Near and distant future mixed in
a confusing manner (telescoping)
7. Reference helps: use outside help
abundantly, biblehub.com
B.
Psalms
1. What kind of Psalm is it?
a. Laments
i.
individual: 3, 22, 31, 39, 42, 57, 71, 88, 120, 139, 142
ii. Corporate:
12, 44, 80, 94, 137
b. Thanksgiving
i.
individual: 18, 30, 32, 34, 40, 66, 92, 116, 118, 138
ii. Corporate:
65, 67, 75, 107, 124, 136
c. Hymns of Praise: 8,
19, 33, 66, 100, 103, 111, 113, 114, 117, 145-149
d. Salvation-History:
78, 105, 106, 135, 136
e. Celebration and
Affirmation: 2, 18, 20, 21, 24, 29, 45-48, 50, 72, 76, 81, 84, 87, 89, 93, 95-99, 101, 110, 122, 132, 144
f. Wisdom: 36, 37, 49,
73, 112, 127, 128, 133
g. Songs of Trust: 11,
16, 23, 27, 62, 63, 91, 121, 125, 131
2. Reference helps: Out of the Depths:
The Psalms Speak for Us Today, Steven Bishop; How to Read the Psalms, Tremper
Longman III; biblehub.com commentary section
C.
Wisdom
1. Proverbs: practical attitudes and
behaviors in everyday life
2. Job: speculative wisdom about
suffering and evil in the world; points to Christ's destruction of evil in the
end
3. Ecclesiastes: speculative wisdom
about the nature of earthly pleasure; points to
Christ's crucifixion that gives us eternal life
4. Song of Solomon (Song of Songs):
marital romance and appropriate sexual desire, not sexual lust and pleasure
5. Reference helps: biblehub.com
commentary section
D.
Law (12 rules from Fee and Stuart, pg. 186)
1. Do see the OT law as God's fully
inspired word for you.
2. Don't see the OT law as God's
direct command to you.
3. Do see the OT law as the basis
for the old covenant, and therefore for Israel's history.
4. Don't see the OT law as binding
on Christians in the new covenant except where specifically renewed.
5. Do see God's justice, love, and
high standards revealed in the OT law.
6. Don't forget to see that God's
mercy is made equal to the severity of the standards.
7. Do see the OT law as a
paradigm-providing examples for the full range of expected
behavior.
8. Don't see the OT law as complete.
It is not technically comprehensive.
9. Do remember that the essence of
the law (the Ten Commandments and the two
chief laws) is repeated in the Prophets and renewed in the NT.
10. Don't expect the OT law to be
cited frequently by the Prophets or the NT. Legal
citation was first introduced only in the Roman era, long after the OT was complete.
11. Do see the OT law as a generous
gift to Israel, bringing much blessing when obeyed.
12.
Don't see the OT law as a grouping of arbitrary, annoying regulations limiting people's freedom.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)